BWitcher

Another point... Leaving Lindgren out and keeping Thorssell will do only one thing to crowds.. drop them even lower, so the financial savings may not even be there.

Looking at the bigger picture we have a No 1 who has never ridden as a heat leader.. It's a recipe for complete disaster. The last time we thrust someone into the No 1 position who wasn't ready was 2008 with Lindgren. He had spent a full year at No 5, so ahead of where Thorssell is now. We were shocking. Are you honestly suggesting Thorssell will be in the top 4 of the league averages???? Edited to add: I would love Thorsell to prove me wrong and I truly hope he does. If so, I'll be the first to say I was wrong!

It seems to me speedway has found yet another way to drive the nail deeper into it's coffin. Not so long ago, if it was dry on the day, a meeting would be on, regardless of how much rain over previous days and weeks. In fact I never batted an eyelid about rain on days before a meeting. All that mattered was, if it was dry on the day you knew things were going ahead. It seems now zero effort is put in... which soon makes fans think why should they put any effort in either.

Fred is the ultimate troll, especially when it comes to Wolves but in his comments about Lindgren/Thorssell he is 100% spot on.

You've hit the nail on the head Speedy69. People keep trotting out the line of 'It's 2018, not the 1970's' just because they've read it somewhere. Actually stop, engage your brain. What is happening is minority groups with no interest are dictating what others should or shouldn't be doing and embarking on hate campaigns if companies don't tow along with their views/policies.

Ok, you're simply wrong then. You couldn't be more wrong in fact. Complaints about 'grid girls' and 'walk on girls' most certainly aren't coming from right wingers.

What the poster means to say is the sport should be pitching itself at social media warriors who don't watch the sport and will never watch the sport.

Right wing? Think you are getting your left and right mixed up there.

No, they like many other brands bow to the pressure of a nasty, vindictive, vociferous minority who 'claim' to be all about rights, but the reality is quite different. Do as they say or they will viciously attack you via social media platforms. You can keep posting 'no longer appropriate for a global audience' as much as you wish, however every survey I have seen of F1 fans and Darts fans has been 80%+ in favour of keeping them. Interestingly there are just as many women in favor as men. It's also very relevant that many of those 'against' don't even watch either sport, they're just jumping on the bandwagon.

You have clearly stated it's embarassing. Now you're fast back pedalling. Why is it embarassing?

Ah but you do have 'the problem' as you are complaining about it. So again, what is the issue you have with an attractive woman? Is it sinful? Should women always be covered up? Maybe you'd be more at home in the Middle East? As for people's expectations... in every available survey conducted since this movement towards abolishing women from these types of roles began the support has been massively to retain them. Unfortunately companies pander to a very vocal vociferous, vindictive minority whose aim is to impose their views on others and lambast them if they don't tow the line. You are very much party to that.

What exactly needs explaining? Seems it's you have the problem.

Basically what we have is a group of jealous woman trying to enforce their way on to others and a group of chauvenistic men telling women to 'cover up'. Oh and a group just creeping to the vociferous minority for a bit of attention.

Who is embarassed? I'd suggest that anyone 'embarassed' is the one with the problem.

Without a doubt. You are completely incapable of separating yourself from judging a rider based upon the season in question, 2003, and his career as a whole. I have already demonstrated to you the fallacy of your argument with hard facts. You've 'attempted' to come up with facts to back up your argument but have had to make them up and be corrected.. that I'm afraid is a sign that the argument is lost before you even start. You've attempted to dismiss Howarth as a 6pt top flight rider. Reality.. 7.56. Wells 7.31 so not far behind. Another fallacy you have created is that Stonehewer 'never disgraced' himself in the GP and is something that Cook won't be able to do.. Let's see what Cook has to try and beat.. 2000 18th - 30pts (Last of the regular riders. Scores of 10, 7, 3, 4, 3, 3 2001 12th - 46 pts scores of 7,5,4,12,6,12 2002 19th - 30pts scores of 13, 5,2,1,2,4,3 I'm not knocking Stoney, he did brilliant to get into the GP's and had a decent crack in 2001.. In 2000 and 2002 he was out of his depth for the most part (to be expected). Cook may well be also, but it would be very difficult to be much worse. What I will say and it is something I have stated many times before is that bigger leagues are far better. They naturally create more heat leaders, more 'stars'. You see riders less so they retain that mystique. The true 'big guns' of the league don't meet so often, hence they don't get beat so often adding to that impression of brilliance.

Leagues always look good 15 years later when you remember all of their riders at their best. They look even better when its a big league so more of them get bigger averages over a longer period of time. Put the same group into a ten team league, half of them you wouldn't remember half as fondly.

"Howarth averaged about 6" you claim... 7.56 was his figure as you are including bonus pts in your comparisons. Significant difference. Here are the averages in the top flight in 2003 of some of the riders you mention. Bjarne Pedersen 7.06 - he was a standout 2nd tier performer with a 10+ average. Moved up that year. David Ruud 6.48 Joonas Kylmakorpi 7.36 - 9.69 in PL, moved up that year Craig Watson 5.23 Leigh Lanham 4.83 Danny Bird 5.93 Tom P Madsen 4.70 Adam Shields 7.44 - 9.99 in 2nd tier- moved up that year Chris Harris 7.28 Shane Parker 6.23 -9.59 in 2nd tier Jan Staechman 6.52 Throw in some of the other riders I said would be pushing 9.5 to 10 and their top flight averages last season Rory Schlein 8.44 Nick Morris 9.38 Scott Nicholls 7.97 So once again, the figures back up what I was saying. Only the very top riders in the PL that year get close to Howarth's average and nowhere near those of Schlein or Morris. Yes, a tougher EL in 2003 but some of them also had spells at reserve, which Howarth, Morris and Nicholls did not. You're obsessed with Klindt, an extreme variance rider who can as easily score 0 as 15 against any opposition. I pointed out a 7.5 rider in a team team league would average around 8-5 to 9 in an eighteen team league. That's reality. You've made the ridiculous claim he wouldn't average 6.00. Again, I remind you, Tony Atkin averaged 7.00.

The top end heatleaders weren't of a 'far higher standard'. The figures show us that. If they were they'd be sporting 10.5-11pt averages. They weren't because they weren't that good, even in a large league where the talent is spread thinly. The riders you and another poster mentioned.. Sean Wilson 9.48 inc bonus pts, hardly dominant. Wilson in 99, 00 and 01 WAS with averages of 10.56, 10.27 and 10.39. Carl Stonehewer - 9.68 Craig Watson - 9.17 Peter Carr - 9.00 This in a 17 team league where they wouldn't be racing the other 'top guys' in the league that often. Not only that of course, there wasn't as much 'doubling up' back then so riders progressed to the top league more frequently once they reached a good enough standard. Cut to last season. Richard Lawson 8.86 Kyle Howarth 9.06 So already, even in a stronger league, facing the other top riders more often, they're matching Watson and Carr. So yes, quite clearly, they'd be pushing 10 at the very least in a 17 team league. The other riders that have been discussed.. Chris Harris 9.25 Nick Morris 9.07 Ricky Wells 9.07 Steve Worrall 9.41 Then we have Craig Cook, 10.37... the claim earlier is he wasn't of the level of Stonehewer.. Nonsense. In his last five seasons in the division in reverse order his average has been 10.37, 10.47, 10.41, 10.83, 9.99. Stonehewer comes close, but his figures are not quite as good.. in a bigger, easier league. You've been on the Easter sherry if you think Nicolai Klindt wouldn't have averaged 6.00 in a league where TONY ATKIN averaged 7.00. As for Iversen, no he wasn't an 'extremely good rider'. He is an 'extremely good rider' now. In 2003 he was a decent promising rider who averaged less than Kyle Howarth did in a tougher league last season. His 'acclaimed' performance you are jumping up and down about in the World Cup came against the mighty nations of Germany, Finland and Czech Republic where realistically you're guaranteed 2nd place minimum in most heats.. a win if you beat the Czech rider.

Keep telling yourself that, you are still wrong. A 7.5pt rider now would have been 8.5 to 9 in 2003 in most cases. It's a mathematical fact. There were EIGHTEEN teams in the 2nd tier in 2018 compared to TEN last season. That immediately gives you 54 heat leaders, compared to 30. Your list of 'endless' riders is solely due to the size of the league. Iversen wasn't a top rider in 2003, indeed neither was Zagar. it was his debut year. Tony Atkin averaged 7.00 in 2003!!! Please don't try and tell me has ever reached the level Klindt can ride at. Craig Cook, Chris Harris, Scott Nicholls, Nick Morris blow 2003 Stonehewer, Wilson, Watson and Cunningham out of the water. Cook isn't in the league this year but you can throw in Danny King, Richard Lawson, Ricky Wells, Kyle Howarth, Rory Schlein as riders who would have been pushing 10pt averages in 2003.

Of course you would, even though it's utter nonsense. Harris and Nicholls aren't on the same level as Frank Smart and Danny Bird? lol

You're right, Cook isn't in the class of Stonehewer. He's above him. Achieving higher averages in the PL, in a much smaller league. Achieving MUCH higher averages in the top flight of racing. Stonehewer was an excellent 2nd division rider and did superbly to get into the GP's and last as long as he did there, but at the level of Cook, no he wasn't. You're falling into the old trap of thinking riders were better than they were simply because they were in a bigger league. More teams = talent spread more thinly and heat leaders have much higher averages. Chris Harris not at the level of Frank Smart? Even now he's above. Smart again was a decent, entertaining heat leader. He only ever averaged above 9 once (just 9.03 in 1998). Again his average was exaggerated by the size of the league. He's the equivalent of a 7-7.5pt rider now.

You have a higher standard of rider in the PL. Cook, Morris, Harris, Nicholls, King, S.Worrall are at least equal, I would say higher standard than Zagar (2003, not now), Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonehewer and Wilson. The 'list' looks far more impressive because there were 17 teams which increases the average of the top riders and creates more heat leaders. Nicolai Klindt gets a job because he's a 7.5pt rider.. would you prefer teams employed a 3pter? A 7.5pt rider now would have been 8.5-9 in 2003. Agree the income isn't there to pay the riders the amounts they want.

Why? Folks continuously trot out the same old scripted lines... but never come up with any legitimate reason.

Horse running tomorrow in the 14:00 at Wincanton by the name of Darcy Ward. 5 years old, so chance it is named after the rider. Anyone know the owners etc?

'All the Poole haters'? There's only three or four who have said or even liked anything. There used to be many, many more, even on this forum. They're now lost to the sport. No worries though! Up the Pirates! Pointing out a serious issue that has been going on for the past 10-15 years is not hating, quite the opposite, it's showing a love for the sport.