BWitcher

Basically what we have is a group of jealous woman trying to enforce their way on to others and a group of chauvenistic men telling women to 'cover up'. Oh and a group just creeping to the vociferous minority for a bit of attention.

Who is embarassed? I'd suggest that anyone 'embarassed' is the one with the problem.

Without a doubt. You are completely incapable of separating yourself from judging a rider based upon the season in question, 2003, and his career as a whole. I have already demonstrated to you the fallacy of your argument with hard facts. You've 'attempted' to come up with facts to back up your argument but have had to make them up and be corrected.. that I'm afraid is a sign that the argument is lost before you even start. You've attempted to dismiss Howarth as a 6pt top flight rider. Reality.. 7.56. Wells 7.31 so not far behind. Another fallacy you have created is that Stonehewer 'never disgraced' himself in the GP and is something that Cook won't be able to do.. Let's see what Cook has to try and beat.. 2000 18th - 30pts (Last of the regular riders. Scores of 10, 7, 3, 4, 3, 3 2001 12th - 46 pts scores of 7,5,4,12,6,12 2002 19th - 30pts scores of 13, 5,2,1,2,4,3 I'm not knocking Stoney, he did brilliant to get into the GP's and had a decent crack in 2001.. In 2000 and 2002 he was out of his depth for the most part (to be expected). Cook may well be also, but it would be very difficult to be much worse. What I will say and it is something I have stated many times before is that bigger leagues are far better. They naturally create more heat leaders, more 'stars'. You see riders less so they retain that mystique. The true 'big guns' of the league don't meet so often, hence they don't get beat so often adding to that impression of brilliance.

Leagues always look good 15 years later when you remember all of their riders at their best. They look even better when its a big league so more of them get bigger averages over a longer period of time. Put the same group into a ten team league, half of them you wouldn't remember half as fondly.

"Howarth averaged about 6" you claim... 7.56 was his figure as you are including bonus pts in your comparisons. Significant difference. Here are the averages in the top flight in 2003 of some of the riders you mention. Bjarne Pedersen 7.06 - he was a standout 2nd tier performer with a 10+ average. Moved up that year. David Ruud 6.48 Joonas Kylmakorpi 7.36 - 9.69 in PL, moved up that year Craig Watson 5.23 Leigh Lanham 4.83 Danny Bird 5.93 Tom P Madsen 4.70 Adam Shields 7.44 - 9.99 in 2nd tier- moved up that year Chris Harris 7.28 Shane Parker 6.23 -9.59 in 2nd tier Jan Staechman 6.52 Throw in some of the other riders I said would be pushing 9.5 to 10 and their top flight averages last season Rory Schlein 8.44 Nick Morris 9.38 Scott Nicholls 7.97 So once again, the figures back up what I was saying. Only the very top riders in the PL that year get close to Howarth's average and nowhere near those of Schlein or Morris. Yes, a tougher EL in 2003 but some of them also had spells at reserve, which Howarth, Morris and Nicholls did not. You're obsessed with Klindt, an extreme variance rider who can as easily score 0 as 15 against any opposition. I pointed out a 7.5 rider in a team team league would average around 8-5 to 9 in an eighteen team league. That's reality. You've made the ridiculous claim he wouldn't average 6.00. Again, I remind you, Tony Atkin averaged 7.00.

The top end heatleaders weren't of a 'far higher standard'. The figures show us that. If they were they'd be sporting 10.5-11pt averages. They weren't because they weren't that good, even in a large league where the talent is spread thinly. The riders you and another poster mentioned.. Sean Wilson 9.48 inc bonus pts, hardly dominant. Wilson in 99, 00 and 01 WAS with averages of 10.56, 10.27 and 10.39. Carl Stonehewer - 9.68 Craig Watson - 9.17 Peter Carr - 9.00 This in a 17 team league where they wouldn't be racing the other 'top guys' in the league that often. Not only that of course, there wasn't as much 'doubling up' back then so riders progressed to the top league more frequently once they reached a good enough standard. Cut to last season. Richard Lawson 8.86 Kyle Howarth 9.06 So already, even in a stronger league, facing the other top riders more often, they're matching Watson and Carr. So yes, quite clearly, they'd be pushing 10 at the very least in a 17 team league. The other riders that have been discussed.. Chris Harris 9.25 Nick Morris 9.07 Ricky Wells 9.07 Steve Worrall 9.41 Then we have Craig Cook, 10.37... the claim earlier is he wasn't of the level of Stonehewer.. Nonsense. In his last five seasons in the division in reverse order his average has been 10.37, 10.47, 10.41, 10.83, 9.99. Stonehewer comes close, but his figures are not quite as good.. in a bigger, easier league. You've been on the Easter sherry if you think Nicolai Klindt wouldn't have averaged 6.00 in a league where TONY ATKIN averaged 7.00. As for Iversen, no he wasn't an 'extremely good rider'. He is an 'extremely good rider' now. In 2003 he was a decent promising rider who averaged less than Kyle Howarth did in a tougher league last season. His 'acclaimed' performance you are jumping up and down about in the World Cup came against the mighty nations of Germany, Finland and Czech Republic where realistically you're guaranteed 2nd place minimum in most heats.. a win if you beat the Czech rider.

Keep telling yourself that, you are still wrong. A 7.5pt rider now would have been 8.5 to 9 in 2003 in most cases. It's a mathematical fact. There were EIGHTEEN teams in the 2nd tier in 2018 compared to TEN last season. That immediately gives you 54 heat leaders, compared to 30. Your list of 'endless' riders is solely due to the size of the league. Iversen wasn't a top rider in 2003, indeed neither was Zagar. it was his debut year. Tony Atkin averaged 7.00 in 2003!!! Please don't try and tell me has ever reached the level Klindt can ride at. Craig Cook, Chris Harris, Scott Nicholls, Nick Morris blow 2003 Stonehewer, Wilson, Watson and Cunningham out of the water. Cook isn't in the league this year but you can throw in Danny King, Richard Lawson, Ricky Wells, Kyle Howarth, Rory Schlein as riders who would have been pushing 10pt averages in 2003.

Of course you would, even though it's utter nonsense. Harris and Nicholls aren't on the same level as Frank Smart and Danny Bird? lol

You're right, Cook isn't in the class of Stonehewer. He's above him. Achieving higher averages in the PL, in a much smaller league. Achieving MUCH higher averages in the top flight of racing. Stonehewer was an excellent 2nd division rider and did superbly to get into the GP's and last as long as he did there, but at the level of Cook, no he wasn't. You're falling into the old trap of thinking riders were better than they were simply because they were in a bigger league. More teams = talent spread more thinly and heat leaders have much higher averages. Chris Harris not at the level of Frank Smart? Even now he's above. Smart again was a decent, entertaining heat leader. He only ever averaged above 9 once (just 9.03 in 1998). Again his average was exaggerated by the size of the league. He's the equivalent of a 7-7.5pt rider now.

You have a higher standard of rider in the PL. Cook, Morris, Harris, Nicholls, King, S.Worrall are at least equal, I would say higher standard than Zagar (2003, not now), Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonehewer and Wilson. The 'list' looks far more impressive because there were 17 teams which increases the average of the top riders and creates more heat leaders. Nicolai Klindt gets a job because he's a 7.5pt rider.. would you prefer teams employed a 3pter? A 7.5pt rider now would have been 8.5-9 in 2003. Agree the income isn't there to pay the riders the amounts they want.

Why? Folks continuously trot out the same old scripted lines... but never come up with any legitimate reason.

Horse running tomorrow in the 14:00 at Wincanton by the name of Darcy Ward. 5 years old, so chance it is named after the rider. Anyone know the owners etc?

'All the Poole haters'? There's only three or four who have said or even liked anything. There used to be many, many more, even on this forum. They're now lost to the sport. No worries though! Up the Pirates! Pointing out a serious issue that has been going on for the past 10-15 years is not hating, quite the opposite, it's showing a love for the sport.

There's little point explaining is there when you haven't got the brainpower to comprehend. You've actually now confirmed what I said, or do you deny there is constant social media talk with regards to Poole's nefarious ways?

What has facts got to do with it? Try reading my post again and you might just understand.

Excellent decision. The only decision it was introduced was to pander to a small minority of vociferous buffoons.

Of course I have proof. It's on social media for all to view.

Talk all you wish too. The best 'promoter' in the country has caused hundreds, more likely thousands of fans to walk away from the sport. EVERY SINGLE clubs social media for the last ten years and more has been full every single season of fans sick of the manipulation and downright corruption in the sport with 95% of the time Ford and Poole squarely in the middle of it. Whether or not their complaints/suspicions were genuine or not, they were there and continue to be there. There is no doubt at all the damage it has done to the sport. What has been done about it? Absolutely nothing other than gloating from Poole fans like yourself which have the net result of worsening the problem and zero action from the BSPA either in clarifying rules or being open and honest. Yes, Ford has played the system, however the question has to be asked why has he continually been allowed to do so. In other businesses/sports there would be an investigation into alleged corrupt practices.

Do you even know what I am referring too?

They did, that was entirely the problem.

No they wouldn't, they'd more likely be closed. Coventry Speedway.

Yes, and effective it is to convey excitement. Which is what speedway is meant to be. Seems some just want it to be like at their local track, an amazing race greeted by a polite ripple of applause (if lucky) or a raised programme board. The kind of atmosphere that sends anyone new to the sport to sleep. There was a classic run off race in 1996 between Mikael Karlsson and Ryan Sullivan at Peterborough. I have the race on two tapes with different commentaries. One was full on excitement and the race to this day still give me chills. The other is a mundane commentary with no excitement shown at all. No chills whatsoever, totally destroyed by the commentary. Exactly the same race, two very different results in terms of effectiveness.

To play devil's advocate and take what Mr Pairman says at face value.. Could the Wolves and Belle Vue promotions have used/created the re-assessment of GP riders as an excuse for not signing the riders when in reality they simply couldn't afford them? Wolves insane signing of Thorssell rather than Lindgren adds credence to that thought process. Either way, the fact still remains, it is the utter lack of transparency that causes these issues. Soon after the end of the season a list of all riders should be published and their starting averages if used the following year.

And again, who is asking. As for the nearest 0.5, absolutely awful idea.

Every post you make just makes the situation worse. Yet again it's a case of who is asking... and more likely, what are you paying.