BWitcher

It was 100%. There is no argument about that, only one rider rode into the other. It's just not often enforced.

Once again another pointless list Sidney. What they did in the BL is IRRELEVANT. It's what level they were at in their time in the NL. However, it is a big long list mainly of pretty mediocre riders. They're certainly not greats, they're certainly not very good riders.. they're riders of average quality.. which funnily enough is the definition of Mediocre.

100% Correct decision. Awful commentary. I love Sam, but he was making things up there. Nicki went perfectly straight, didn't lean over and was simply rode into by Gollob. Tough call, but correct. The incident wasn't bunching, it was entirely caused by Gollob veering of line into Pedersen.

Awful call from the referee. Lindback was far quicker, right on the inside, Emil trying to shut the door way too late turned into him.

Collins rode 1 year in the National League and averaged 8. So you can scratch him off your list of being a great National League rider for starters. Again you bring up.. 'went on to be'. What they went on to be is irrelevant. What is relevant is their abilities at the time they rode in the league. It's very very easy to name a bunch of no 1's over an ever expanding period. Go ahead and name me the same amount of second strings and reserves who weren't mediocre or journeymen. Should be easy for you, there's 4 times as many of them!

Nobody is discussing the racing Sidney, so once again, no idea what you are wittering on about. The quality of racing has nothing to do with the standard of rider. You can see some great racing in the junior racing, but the standard is poor. The overall standard of rider in the National League was mediocre... that is INARGUABLE. It was the 2nd division. You can pick out 20 odd riders over a 10 year period who were above mediocre standard.. but that leaves you with hundreds who weren't.. and many of those at the bottom end of teams who were less than mediocre standard... just as it is now!

Of course it was mediocre, it was the second division. That doesn't mean the racing was bad, or it wasn't a good division to watch. You're just plucking names out over a large time period, as HenryW above and others are pointing out. Read HenryW's post. It explains it.

No you haven't. Only in your warped perception. You've managed to name around 15 riders over a 25 year period to prove how 'strong' the league was. Marvelous! Some of the riders you named rode 2 seasons or less in the league. So basically you've come up with less than 1 rider per team. There's 7 riders in a team! The best you have come up with is riders on the up who didn't stick around, those on the way down nowhere near their best and riders who couldn't cut the mustard in the top flight! These are the selected riders over a 25 year period!! Not going to say much for the remaining 6 riders in each team. Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times. Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

Once again, thanks for proving my point for me. The national league was never super tough, riders of ability would clean up and very quickly move on, riders on the wane who could no longer cut it at the top could extend their career by years and journeymen riders could forge a decent career. You're expandind your time frame ever more and more in an attempt to prove something. Even bringing riders who raced for one season in the league into your argument. As said, there are many names who had short spells in the league on the way up, some who had longer spells on the way down.. But the overwhelming majority of the league was mediocrity and below. That's why its z lower league!

What a load of pie in the sky nonsense. How are Scunthorpe getting on by the way? Another long list of names that people judge from in the main at their peak.. which wasn't when they were riding consistently in the National League, with the exception of the National League journeymen who rarely ventured into the top flight. Once again though people think they were world beaters because they rode in a big league, in an easier heat format, racing against lesser riders and clocking up averages including bonus pts so there were lots of them with 9-11 pt averages. The National League has almost always (changed a bit in recent years) been the domain of up and coming riders who soon progress to the top flight (Wigg, Dugard, Loram), riders on the slide who look for an easier time at a lower standard (Kennett, Les Collins) and journeymen. It's very very easy to come up with a list of names of riders in that era.. I've already provided a list of names in a latter era Premier League that absolutely blow your list out of the water so it proves nothing, here they are and more.. Woffinden, Holder, Ward, N. Pedersen, B. Pedersen, K. Bjerre, Iversen, Doyle, Crump, Havelock. Right now in the PL you have riders such as Lambert, Nick Morris, Ben Barker, Sam Masters, Craig Cook, Danny King, Brady Kurtz, Jack Holder. Some of those are on the up and in years to come their names will look even more impressive.. some of them have reached their level and are taking advantage of a lower standard. Just how it's always been.

The fact is, it doesn't matter one iota what they did years later. The point of me naming Woffinden, Holder, Ward was to show you it's irrelevant. You've not quite grasped that.

What an awful contradictory post. How large due you want to make your selection period? One minute you are talking about Boyce, Wiltishire, Dugard, the next you are on about Collins and Penhall! One minute you are telling us how great the riders in the league were, the next they wouldn't be able to score more than a couple of pts at reserve? Again, what period? It's no good plucking things out that are 15-20 years apart. Of course you are also falling into the age old issue of picking out names that weren't 'names' at the time, just riders. Easy to do that from history. I'll play the name game however and give you 3 recent Premier League riders.... Woffinden, Holder, Ward. I'll even go back a little bit further and throw Nicki Pedersen in.

It's actually an absolutely terrible post.

Should have, could have, might have.... didn't. That's the difference between the elite greats of the sport and those just below them.

You keep saying this.. the 'mega tough' old NL. What was mega tough about it? It was a league full of journeyman. The current PL is stronger.

It all comes back to the fact that folk were watching 13 heat meetings, with heat leaders not meeting each other as much as they do now very often on preferred gate positions. Resulting in all 3 heat leaders in teams running high averages (as they included bonus pts).. and 'some' folk think that meant they were all top class riders as they rarely saw them beat... especially as they often only saw them once a year. Now, you see riders all the time with all the TV coverage, plus visiting tracks 2,3 sometimes 4 times a season. Heat leaders constantly racing each other.. resulting in their aura of invincibility being eroded. Whatever era you choose to take, as waiheke mentions above, you will always have 2 or 3 dominant forces at the top, another group just below capable of challenging but not as consistently, then a further group below that. No he doesn't.. as has been explained in the preceding posts.

Yep.. She was doing so well too! Not really, just another dumbass rider in front.

Speedway managers get worse! Berwick giving up the best gates. Unbelievable.

Wow, who was that girl interviewing? She was word perfect and seemed to know what she was talking about!

lol. We're so blessed.

Very strange indeed. Great stuff Alan, got one now, thanks for your help.

Darn, flagging up all kinds of warnings for that link. Any others?

Perhaps its a case of go with the slowest and if he has no joy, not the engines fault, he's always like that.... but if he starts doing well.....

Not if you're just watching the leader there wasn't. Meanwhile there was overtaking in 17 of the 23 heats. A number of those had multiple passes, plus races with passing, repassing and passing again. So we can put that myth to bed.. its not passing that excites speedway fans!

So you condone posters breaking forum rules. Which is what Gustix does with each and everyone of his trolling posts. Glad we cleared that up.