BWitcher

So has this one.. Darcy Ward rode in the Premier League... A rather tenuous link some might say though

What ban are you referring too?

Not so sure, maybe away from home, but certainly not at Monmore. The no 1 starts off the outside gates in Heat 1 which at some tracks, particularly Monmore is a major disadvantage. Its commonplace for the No 2 rider there to pop out and win heat 1. Even Ales Dryml, whom I remember backing 2 or 3 times in Sky meets to win heat 1 at a silly price of around 7/1.

We're just keeping the thread alive until Darcy gives us more to talk about... and keep chasing the record of the infamous Norbolds hole!

That's a very good point regarding injuries. Some riders can bounce back from injuries, for others it can have a big effect on their careers. Two examples of the top of my head, Sam Ermolenko, came back from major, major leg injuries to be a better rider that he was before... whereas Joe Screen after he broke his leg was never quite the same rider again. Please don't take that as a knock on Joe Screen, or any rider that wasn't so good after an injury!

You see, this is my point. This kind of hype! He's below Lindback, Vaculik, Protasiewicz and Kolodziej in the European Championships... none of whom you would say would be 'top 8' GP riders for sure. Granted, its only 2 meetings and he may turn that around somewhat in the final 2 rounds, its just that given all the hype I've heard about him, he's been disappointing.. (as he has in the league matches I've seen from Sweden).

Definition of journeyman is "a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding" You're right, some journeymen will be better than others. They could be viewed as a 'star' depending upon the level they were racing at. Nigel Crabtree for example, riding in the 2nd division was an undoubted 'star'. However, in the overall context of the professional speedway leagues he was a journeyman rider of average ability. That's not a knock on him, or a criticism, just the reality of the level he was at. However, to the fans of clubs he rode for, particularly Stoke I imagine, he would be as bigger star as Hans Nielsen was in the top flight. A rider of similar ability could ply his trade in the top flight all his career and not be remembered anywhere near as fondly (if that's the right word) but his ability was no less. Once again, not once on the entire thread has this been questioned. You have the issue by again trying to argue against something that has never been said.. i.e. creating an argument in your head. As for your other point, I'm afraid if a team is racing in a higher league they do have 'superiority'. That's how sport works, it's really not a difficult concept to understand. Although again, its a fictitious argument that you have created as nowhere has there been anyone claiming 'my team is better than yours' blah blah. May as well say how dare people label Ivan Mauger and Tony Rickardsson as superior riders, just because they won 6 world titles!

Nope, you just fell for the ramblings of someone who decided that it offensive to call a rider a journeyman or mediocre. We've established it isn't.

What on earth are you talking about now? Journeymen are the lifeblood of every sport, speedway is no different. We've identified the National League was a much loved league that provided entertaining racing to fans all over the country over a long period of time.. it consisted primarily of journeymen. You advocate not having such leagues?

Hallelujah! We got there in the end!

Whose form took a notable downturn once he couldn't use his switch anymore! With regards to Greg Laguta, I've read nothing but constant hype about him and his brother, yet I've never seen anything from either of them to warrant it. I'm not denying they've had great meetings, just that in the 20 or so times I've seen them ride they've been average..i think perhaps I'm expecting too much from them.

I don't need to know, just sit back and watch you get yourself in such a muddle you end up arguing with yourself. We've now established, courtesy of you, that one of the NL's top riders was the equivalent of Rochdale. Now THAT'S an insult.

Like Rochdale you say? So one of the best riders in the National League was the equivalent of Rochdale? Thanks for finally accepting I was right all along.

Why was it a great achievement? That suggests it was something out of the ordinary, a lesser rider succeeding against better ones? But that can't be the case because you've been arguing blind that they weren't lesser riders in the National League..

I've never disputed it WK, which is why I commented on your post as I did, no offence was intended. Quality of rider and quality of racing are two completely different entities.

Spot on! Which is what made the racing in the old National League good of course!

Again, you've shown you don't understand the point. It's not an insult, its an observation. If you actually took the time and had the manners to read what I had written you might understand. I have not once mentioned the racing. IT IS IRRELEVANT in the context of this discussion. You can have great racing at any level of speedway, whether its World Champions, journeymen or juniors who aren't very good.

Another who doesn't even know what the debate is! You don't need to watch a single youtube clip, you don't need to have been to a single speedway meeting in your life. It is absolutely nothing to do with the quality of racing, how exciting it was or any of that. I haven't questioned any of those factors. I simply stated that the riders in the National League were mediocre, journeymen riders. That doesn't mean they can't put on an exciting meeting, just as you can get exciting meeting watching junior or National League meeting now, the two are not related. However the simple FACT is, there's that word again, the National League was the second Division. It did NOT contain the best riders, so by definition its standard of rider... NOT racing.. was average. It's really not a hard concept to grasp. However, if you can name me lots of riders that won World titles, British Titles, Overseas Titles, Commonwealth Titles whilst riding in the National League then well.. maybe Sidney will have a point.

It's nothing to do with seeing the product. You yourself have told me the best riders rode in the BL. You yourself have told me that riders in the NL would for the most part struggle in the BL. Therefore, from what YOU have taught me, the riders in the NL were of an average standard.. i.e. Mediocre. Or do you now want to change YOUR verdict from YOUR years of watching?

Sidney, you don't even know what the debate was about anymore. I said the National League consisted of mediocre/journeymen riders. That is Fact. Not an opinion. You're now wittering about whether the league was easy, that's something totally different. Whether a league is easy depends upon your level. If you are a good rider, its going to be fairly easy, hence why some older riders dropped down a league as they get older and why good younger riders soon moved up a league.. If you are a mediocre/average/journeyman level rider its going to be a good level of league to ride in. If you are a below average rider, of which there were lots in the National League then its going to be a very tough level to ride in. Interesting thing you say here Sidney.. Yeates got through a 'tough' British FInal as a NL rider.... That statement alone of yours confirms what I've been saying all along.

Sidney, give it up. Have you even read Waiheke's post? He is not agreeing with you in any shape or form. He 100% categorically confirms that the National League was full of journeymen/mediocre riders. He goes further than that and confirms that in actual fact the league had a lot of riders of a LOWER standard than that. Yourself, Tyler and Gavan have come up with various lists of riders, none of which proved anything, none of which had any relevance and ALL have been shown to not back your argument up in Waiheke's detailed post above. Incidentally, being certain about something isn't a flaw when what you are certain of is 100% correct. A flaw is being certain about something that is utterly wrong and I'm afraid that's where you have a problem Sidney, not me.

Once again Sidney, There is no opinion involved. History has already spoken, the facts are available to anyone. Read waihekeaces1's post. It covers every point and explains it all to you.

Spot on.

What has being a 'role model' got to do with anything? Ward is a box office name rider and Sky quite rightly use him to promote the sport. Pedersen doesn't ride in the UK, Sky don't show the GP's so its absolutely pointless promoting him.

Why would Sir Matt do that? Poole want Kings Lynn in the playoffs, a team they know they can turn over with ease.