BWitcher

Many? More made up nonsense. Only the trolling Drop a Cog on this thread has said anything. I've asked you a question, were you even at the meeting? If, as I suspect, you weren't you have nothing to base your assertion that Poole 'deserved' to win the meeting on other than the fact they scored 46 and in your outdated 'opinion' it means they deserved to win. I've explained precisely why that notion is outdated and delusional, you are simply unable to comprehend it and stick to your redundant ideas.. making them irrelevant. So no, I don't need to look at myself at all. Finally, as for anyone being more intelligent, you have no idea who is or isn't more intelligent and it's simply a childish retort to an argument you have long since lost.

Your opinion is irrelevant. Utterly as you are basing it on a situation where 46 points wins a meeting, it doesn't anymore. Furthermore, as I explained before, but you don't grasp/understand, hence your delusion is that sport is never a case of 'if this wasn't there, or if that hadn't of happened'. Without the tac ride, every remaining heat is different. We have no way of knowing what would have happened. As it happens, in this meeting, there were no controversial decisions, wolves scored 47, poole scored 46, hence they won, deservedly so regardless of your deluded opinion. Yes, deluded, as the only reason you are claiming it is due to the tr.... Incidentally, were you at the meeting?

An opinion of the 'rules' in the sport is a totally different thing to deciding who 'deserved' to win a speedway meeting. Go back and read my post, I haven't questioned your opinion on the TR rule, nor indeed have I given mine. I have simply corrected you on your incorrect and mis-informed assertion that Wolverhampton were not the 'deserving' winners of the meeting. See above I will add that most moaning about the TR rule fell for the ridiclous concept of being able to substitute in better riders in races 'just because they were losing', a far more unfair rule. Again, not saying I didn't prefer it, simply that it was more unfair. Correct!

They deserved to win as they scored the most point under the rules of the sport. Simple. Anyone saying anything else is deluded. Everything changes when you take the tac ride away, there is no guarantee poole would have scored 46.. May have been more, may have been less.

I mentioned this earlier. In both heats 10 and 13 Lindgren was very aggressive (fairly) on Holder. Holder had a run on the back straight into turn 3 on both occasions and Lindgren got out wide to ensure his run was blocked. On both occasions this forced Holder to the back. After Heat 13, Holder blocked Lindgren as he went to turn off the track back to the pits, then proceeded to have words as they rode back towards the pits. In Heat 15 they were once again involved in a great scrap with Lindgren again emerging on top, upon exiting the track Holder accelerated up the ramp over the greyhound track and up the path leading back round to the pits, clearly annoyed at the result. He went too quick, tried to avoid by pulling a broadside and collided with the ambulance. Pretty sure he wasn't injured, but if he was it would be entirely self-inflicted, the ambulance is stationery in its normal position, nowhere near the track. Holder was simply riding out of control off track.. wasn't Lambert fined for something similar earlier in the year?

Ward has served his time and the more I think about it, the more I believe that should not play any part in wildcard decisions. The 4 wildcard spots should be used for the best available riders not currently in the GP. Ward is one of those.

As I said earlier, the only people even suggesting Holder shouldn't have been in Heat 15 weren't there. It didn't even cross my mind that Watt would be selected.

Correct. So used to it now from Adams.

Just back from a very very entertaining meeting. I notice a lot of folk who clearly weren't at the track asking why Watt wasn't in Heat 15... because he wouldn't have been good enough to get the job done is the simple answer. Holder's score was poor but he was involved in 3 hard races with Lindgren, with Lindgren riding very hard to shut the door on him out wide into 3 in both Heats 10 and 13 which sent Holder to the back. They were involved in another epic race in Heat 15 with Lindgren again just gaining the edge. Watt's score flattered him. He gated of the inside in Heat 1 and had Thorssell crawling all over him for 4 laps, with Holder right behind him.. PK, having lost some 30 yards on the 1st turns had caught right up to Holder. Heats 5 & 8 he again made good starts without looking fast. Heat 10 he was well adrift. Simply put, Holder and Janowski were far and away Pooles best hopes in Heat 15. The match winner for Wolves was Adam Royon, who riding Musielak's bike in Heat 12 pulled of a brilliant ride. Most Wolves fans had it down as a 5-1 to Wolves but Roynon popped out the gate and despite being passed at one point by Newman, he regained the lead and held it in style. PK rode a vintage race in Heat 13, picking of the improving Janowski, with Fred stuffing Holder at the back. Holder had words at the end of that race with Lindgren. Heat 15 was another great race, Wells gating, being passed by Janowski and Lindgren winning the duel with Holder. Holder wasn't happy, accelerating back to the pits and looked like almost collided with ambulance, having to broadside it to stop. All in all an excellent meeting, keenly fought with some decent racing throughout.

My first meeting of the season tonight, let's see if we really are as bad as it seems.

Spot on. Jason Doyle also deposited Freddie Lindgren onto the floor in a Playoff first leg a few years ago too. No action there either.

The heading says Darcy Ward. You state, that 6363 posts later people are all banging on about the same thing.. i.e. Darcy Ward. Then you claim people 'change like the weather'. Do you actually remember what you post, or just type the first thing that comes into your head before it disappears out the other side again?

lmao! Up there with some of the best Starman classics!

Yet other riders from other countries will come here, ride in the PL, move up to the EL and then on to higher levels abroad. As indeed will Robert Lambert I'm sure. So is it a problem with the system, or a problem with the riders? Over the years, how many full time riders have their been in speedway second division? Was it a common thing? Just a few? Is it reasonable to expect to make a full time career riding at that level? James Grieves for example, a pretty decent 2nd division (and top flight at times) rider always had a job separate to speedway.

There is no issue with the majority of riders we have as long as they fill the right places in the team. What IS needed is a number 1. Lindgren isn't fulfilling that role anymore.. if Tai or Pawlicki came back, great, but highly unlikely. Might be time to try and sign someone like Jason Doyle. Again, nothing to do with a new broom. We made the mistake of building around Thorssell this year and its one of the main reasons we are in the mess we are. If his average balloons back up above 6 again due to riding as a second string then he's the last person you want to sign.

Best place to hide!

Not entirely sure how I can be 'talking to myself' when you interjected yourself into this discussion of your own will. Totally misunderstood the topics being discussed and hurled false accusations in my direction... plus some petty personal abuse. I ask you again, you've made an accusation, back it up and quote where derogatory comments have been made regarding the riders in the National League. You claim it's on the thread, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to do. I think what Gustix is perhaps getting at is that riders move around a lot more these days? There is less of an association between riders and certain clubs than perhaps there used to be. It's always an interesting discussion point.. my team Wolverhampton have always been very loyal to their riders and traditionally kept a very familiar line up.. I like that.. but equally there are many fans that don't and in years the team struggles they use that as the reason for the struggles. It never is of course, it's simply because the team wasn't built correctly!

No denigrating comments have been made on the thread at ANYTIME. If it's on record on the thread, go ahead and quote it. Nor is there any 'superiority complex' from EL fans. The only people who have this complex are Premier League fans like you who never shut up about how great the racing is in the PL, how much better the product is in the PL and slag off the Elite League at every given opportunity. Newsflash for you, Speedway is a great sport at ALL levels. I don't care if its GP level, Polish League, Elite League, Premier League or MDL if you have riders of a fairly equal ability putting on an exciting race its fantastic. The league is an irrelevance. You have offered absolutely NOTHING to this thread other than create something that isn't there and now fire of a load of insulting personal nonsense. If you'd bothered to read you'll have noticed that there are numerous folk who have been engaged in this debated, at least 9 or 10 throughout the thread, there has been lots of intelligent interesting posts regarding a range of different topics/periods/leagues. All you have brought to it is poison. Sidney and I have banter, I find Sidney fun, frustrating at times, but harmless enough.. You on the other hand are clearly a nasty piece of work. Sidney, the thread has moved on in your absence. Everyone is in total agreement now except for yourself who I'm afraid STILL doesn't grasp it. A 'good' rider in the National League was an average rider at best. It's been explained to you over and over and over by numerous posters. Example: That's not an insult to them, to the fans of the clubs they rode for they were 'stars', they were their best riders and were loved and quite rightly so. They found the level that was best for them and enjoyed great careers.

Another night and again Adams sends a message to the team of, I can't be bothered. The gap is pulled back to 7pts, heat 9, he once again doesn't replace Bates with the better rider. When a manager can't be bothered to try, it will soon filter down to the rest of the team.... and it well and truly has.

That's a difficult thing to judge really.. How can you quantify 'natural talent'. In Ward's case you could argue he has a great deal of success with very little effort... whereas Tai, to reach the top has become the ultimate professional. I would say Ward has more natural talent, but Tai has maximised the natural talent that he has. Tai used to be quite wild on a bike, often crashing. He rides much more sensibly now. You and a few others keep dredging this up, but you do realise its proving precisely the point that you've been arguing against? Lee went straight into the BL with some meetings in the NL.. the NL quickly became too easy for him and he went to the harder challenge. Exactly what many of us have been saying all along. When riders became good, the majority of them moved up.

Indeed Norbold. Although it didn't fall into the timeframe that we were discussing so I think it slipped by. It would be fantastic if a similar shake up of the sport could take place now and the years of prosperity that followed be replicated.. sadly I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

I've no doubts in Poland and of course Russia he is a very good rider... but there have been many riders over the years who have been brilliant in Poland but not been able to replicate it at the next level. I also don't doubt he is a good rider, he clearly has to be to have achieved what he has done and for people to think so highly of him. I simply commented, for some reason every time I watch him, he's not that good. I must be a curse!

I'm sure everyone would like you to share with us some of your wisdom gained over the years watching the sport.. it's why people despair you resort to the posts you do.

Before the Shawcross report and the merger of the two leagues, wasn't the Provincial League (technically a 2nd division) home to a large number of decent riders? Due to the lack of numbers in the top flight then?

Damn you.