BWitcher

Just say, those that have improved have done so because of what they learned at Poole

I came on this thread to discuss Sheffield. I wish people would stick to topics

Really? How many fingers do you have on your hand.. Off the top of my head.. Wolves, Norwich, West Ham, Man Utd, Liverpool, Brighton... six teams that are sold out for every home game this season. Add in Leicester, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Man City, Tottenham, Bournemouth, Everton, Arsenal to the above. Crystal Palace almost every game. Watford for most, almost full in the others. So at least 14 teams with full stadiums for every single home game... and most of the others full in most games.

Not necessarily the case due to the heat format in operation now I'm afraid. The Wolves riders are case in point regarding that. Any of Masters, Schlein and Thorssell saw their averages rocket when they were riding at either No 3 or 4. Thorssell spent most of 2016/17 in those positions. When they ride at 1 or 5 (especially 1) their average dropped. As a result there was a pretty constant interchange between them for the No 1 jacket. You'd have to break it down and get an average for them at each position before you could use their average to paint a true picture of improvement..or not. That all said, if we are looking over a four year period then there is no question that they have both improved, as they weren't riding at No 1 in 2016. Questions could be asked whether they can improve further, Thorssell is the more likely as injuries (as pointed out) have effected him.

All the rambling in between is irrelevant. Your statement of riders 'generally improve after leaving Poole' is at best unproven and most likely false. Do riders 'generally improve after leaving Wolverhampton' too? Poole more than any club have had riders improve in their time riding for them... that's why they've constantly been at the top end of the table.

Indeed, but are they not both as bad? Stevebrum made a claim, he isn't able to back it up or prove it. All he had to do was say he meant 'some' riders.. but he's too stubborn to do that. Lisa may be going on, but she is in the right with her initial point. Stevebrum has no proof that riders 'generally' improve after leaving Poole. Given their success levels over the years that statement is more likely to apply to all the other clubs surely? Anyways.. have a nice Christmas/New Year.

That may be the case, but in this case she is correct, or is the forum now at a level where facts no longer matter?

Only caught part of this.. But you've said, "Generally riders improve when they leave Poole". One wonders how they had so much success over the years if riders 'generally improve' when they leave... Bleat, moan, deflect away.. your statement is unproven and most likely wrong. SOME riders improve.

Nail on the head. His argument only holds water when looking at two riders of a similar starting average. The other factor is that Nicholls riding as a second string, with Monmore as a home track, would also significantly increase his average.

Not to mention that just reaching 42.5 may not even get you in the playoffs anyway.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! If you were going to do that, starting 2pts under the limit doesn't help you in the slightest, it actually hinders it. As '2pts' of your 'improvement' are wasted just reaching parity. There isn't a single argument that can make starting 2pts under the limit a good option.

Absolutely spot on. Now consider replacing Howarth with any of Harris, Nicholls, Hans Andersen, just three who would be available. All three of them would clean up as a second string at Monmore. If they went up in the team, so what you've got Masters, Thorssell or Schlein as a second string. It would have made us much stronger that last year... instead of weaker than last year. Then, as you say Becker is at reserve.. should he, or indeed Douglas, really start banging in points, look at the calibre of rider to drop to reserve!

So why is Schlein in the side then? Why was PK in the side for many years? It doesn't matter how you twist it, starting two points below the limit is absolutely ridiculous when there is zero reason to do so. You can have all the young improving riders, but you build to the points limit.

It doesn't matter how you try and twist it. If we're up to 42.5 by mid season its a blown opportunity as we should have been around 44.5 and dominating. There is no justification whatsoever for starting 2pts weaker than necessary... only cost.

Not at all, I have no problem with signing riders for the future, there is still a basis for that, but not to the extent of building 2pts short of the limit. i.e. it should not be used as a defence for doing that.. which I think we agree on.

It's not a debate, the team could have been SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. I don't think it will fail miserably.. but we've made very hard work of it when could have had an amazing team. One must wonder if you're part of the promotion

Even by speedway fan's standards, that is an absolute ridiculous statement. None of it has anything to do with last year. You don't take advantage of riders being on lower averages than they should be, by building a team 2pts under the limit. That immediately negates much of the expected increase. Under no circumstances is it a 'pretty good position' to be in. If you honestly believe that Nicol at reserve and Becker in the main body of the team is stronger than the likes of Andersen/Harris/Nicholls at 2 and Becker at reserve then you have a point... but you cannot possibly think that. As regards changes... what changes are we going to make? Chances are as we have said there will be some improvement in the team... that would take us back to the limit, so who are you going to change? You won't want to drop those who have been improved.. so any opportunity to strengthen would likely be gone.

Totally missing the point. The idea of building for the future around two riders is a flawed one in speedway, now more than ever. Should they progress and become top riders, they very likely won't be riding in this country anyway. You're happy with having a much weaker team than was possible, that's your prerogative. You're happy yet more fans will stop attending, further weakening the club, that's your prerogative.

Or 3 Wolfsbane.. or 3 Now as regards Peter Adams and his attempts to suggest that Broc Nicol, a rider who averages just over 5 in the lower league is a better option that Nicholls is bordering on the ridiculous. Just stick to the real reason, Nicol was snapped up as one for the future along with Becker. In doing so, they've sacrificed some strength for this year.. big gamble when nobody knows the future of the sport in this country and riders aren't exactly loyal these days.

Yep, that will be precisely the argument used I would suspect. A calculated gamble.

I can see where you are coming from and agree with you to an extent. However.. they are now going to need significant improvement just to get back to where they were. The idea is generally to improve from a position of close to the pts limit.. Now they need that improvement just to reach parity. As it happens, signing Nicholls for example, I'd have backed him to have improved his average quite a bit with riding Monmore every week which suits him far more than Peterborough.. as last season showed. That would have translated into more confidence for the rider, more money to spend on maintenance and a likely increase in his away output too. Essentially it boils down to Nicholls or Nicol.. who do you think would have achieved a better average next season riding for Wolverhampton. Then you have to factor in that signing Nicol pushes Becker out of the reserve spot (I think) making things tougher for him and reducing the scope for increase he has.

If we were going to be signing a big name No 1, we'd have announced it by now in my opinion. As others have said, especially for the season ticket sales. This way, they're teasing that a No 1 is being signed in the hope that season tickets will be sold... then drop Masters and Thorssell in later. It will be sold as a team that went so close last year and starting fit they can do better... plus the potential of Nicol. If that was the team, I wouldn't completely rule them out as it's still a decent side IF Morris can get his old form back and Becker and Nicol continue to progress. However, they're being put under undue pressure from the off. I'd be delighted to be wrong though and hopefully I will be.

How little you know!

Stood on back straight at Cradley, end of season meeting in the early 90's.. Suddenly a voice behind us in that accent you describe "It's cold tonight ain't it" then... "Them donkeys am fast" He wasn't referring to Cradley on this occasion Speaking of end of season meetings, do you remember the one where PK was chasing his donkey around the track? Cut across the centre green to try and catch it as I remember. Hilarious!

The perfect example. How so many said they would never ever support Hamill... soon changed.