BWitcher

So you have a belief that scrapping the playoffs would suddenly make people want to go to speedway again.. why is that?

Still can't answer the question. I understand, you can't. An opinion is only as good as the rationale behind it. You were asked to quantify your rationale.. you couldn't. Not even made an attempt too. Just decided you don't want to discuss it anymore. That's fine, your decision. So the reality is, there's nothing to go over. You have failed in the entire thread to give one reason as to why crowds would increase if playoffs were scrapped.

Nothing wrong with me, I'm not the one who has avoided answering a simple question, got his knickers in a twist and stormed out. Relax, you made a claim, you can't back it up. It's no big deal.

And he can clearly see from where he is positioned!

The books say otherwise, which is possibly true given the levels of cost cutting taking place. Remember, the current heat formula cuts costs massively as the higher paid riders (heat leaders) score a lot less.. particularly in Wolves case last year with Lindgren!

I mean the Heat Leader list. Quite how neither of them are on it is one thing... but the very fact we then don't consider them is another!

Wells isn't on the list it seems though from what the reports from the talk in say. Thorsell whilst not necessarily a bad signing would not be a 'gobsmacking one'.

They've set themselves up for a fall with such a statement.

Of course, that's the standard fall back line when you know you have no argument.

What exactly are you expecting them to pull out of the bag? It's been confirmed that Lindgren, Bech and Kylmakorpi are from the infamous heat leader list.. thus there is no better rider coming in, or they'd be on that list too. There is a rider who'd be brilliant as a second string signing, but we've decided we don't want him. The best we can hope for is something like Masters and Thorssell. Essentially if Lindgren doesn't return to being a 8.5-9pt man we'll be also rans. At least they are trying something different but it doesn't mean it will be any better. Hopefully it will.. but compared to a team like Belle Vue, we look weak.

This isn't 'my logic'. This 'logic' has been introduced by the anti playoff people who have decided that fans don't go because of the playoffs. I am yet to see one single good reason as to why that would be the case.. here you are telling us that fans have always attended regardless (although the evidence of course says otherwise), so why, if they attend when their team has no hope of finishing top, would they suddenly decide they don't want to go anymore if they still have something to race for? See, it's not my logic that is flawed, it's the logic of those desperately trying to link declining crowds to the play-offs. People are well within their rights to think that a straight league is a better way to decide the champions and in some respects I agree with them... but to try and justify that by blaming the playoffs for the continued decline in attendances is a fabrication. Once again you post has no logic to it. Fans aren't attending, so let's introduce more less meaningful meetings, how exactly do you think that will bring the fans in? Why do you think there are less meeetings? Why do you think they don't run individuals, 4TT's etc.. Simply because the demand wasn't there! Probably for the best as we're still waiting for you to come up with a single reason why crowds would INCREASE with no playoffs.

Another post in favour of the playoffs. You cannot use the logic of more meetings that matter to argue against the playoffs... that is the very purpose of them, to INCREASE the importance of matches. If we follow your logic, then with no play-offs, once a team was unable to win the league the fans would stop going and wait till next year when they had a chance again. The logic is utterly flawed. The only team/s that 'might' be missing out are the ones at the top who would have been embroiled in a title race under the old system... but you don't see them complaining. The argument as to which system is fairest is a completely different one, you can believe one system is fairer than another, but where the fantasy comes in is when folk make deluded statements that a particular team were the 'TRUE' champions because they finished top of the league. They weren't, that's fantasy.

So PK is not a heat leader. They've well and truly lost the plot.

Ah we're back in fantasy land again I see!

Wells was confirmed as not returning.. and is on the heat leader list.

As SCB says, confirmed at Wolves talk in tonight, same heat format as last year!

All well and good, but the winners of the playoffs are the Champions. The folk on here want it to be the other way round, which it isn't, in any of these sports.

There is no theory. It is reality. Yeah, you must be right Sid, that's why the terraces are empty for the playoffs.. cus folk think its just not right...

No, it is end of. Factually. End of story. Now there's a childrens sections if you want to go there and play make believe. However, back in the real world. TRUE champions are decided by rules, not what you believe. Poole were Elite League Champions last year. Why? Because they won the Grand Final. Poole were Elite League Champions the year before. Why? Because they won the Grand Final. As I said, that is it. End of. Not because I say so, but simply because it is.

Again you're in fairy land Do you have the slightest comprehension what is happening in the world around you. Do you think the Polish and Swedish leagues have issues with 'credibility' due to the winners being determined by playoffs. What about Rugby League? What about Rugby Union? NHL? NBA? MLB? NFL? Nascar? Premier League Darts? All successful sports, all use playoffs.. If you want to talk about lack of credibility, that is precisely what your point lacks. You can keep saying it as much as you like, but in the REAL world, the reality is quite different. More utter nonsense. Champions are not decided by 'what you believe' They are decided by a pre-agreed set of rules. The winners by those set of rules are TRUE champions. End of, no further discussion needed.

Yes really. Do the best tracks for racing have the biggest crowds? If they don't, quality of racing isn't much of a factor. I'll help you out.. they don't. A team winning most weeks with average racing will get bigger gates than one losing every week with great racing.

You're making things up again. The True champions are the winners determined by the rules of that particular sport, not by what some pensioner decides in Sunderland. In Speedway the TRUE champions are the winners of the Grand Final, its not a difficult concept. Interesting you don't give a damn about any other position in the league though, that renders redundant the argument anti-playoff folk keep pushing.

Yes they are fair. They haven't won it once at all, that is something you have just completely and utterly made up. The rules are simple, the winners of the Grand Final are champions. Nobody has won anything till that point. Ah the old 'football' analogy. They don't need it because its the biggest and most successful sport in the world. However, football in some countries does indeed have playoffs and other systems. All you do by bringing other sports into the argument is shoot yourself in the foot as many, many sports use playoffs and they don't affect crowds. Hence you have nothing, absolutely nothing on which to base any thesis that this happens in speedway by looking at other sports. And again, your final comment is you just being too stubborn... you know you're wrong.. but you're too stubborn to admit it.. Otherwise, if you were right, you could very easily tell me exactly WHY a 4th v 5th place fixture where neither team can win the league is more attractive than a 4th v 5th place fixture where a play off place is up for grabs. Nobody does, again that's you in fairy land.

There is no 'agreeing to disagree' on this issue, that is the whole point. You are seriously telling me that a clash between a 4th and 5th placed team, with no hope of winning the league is of more interest when there are no playoffs to aim for than when there are? Seriously? There is no logic in this whatsoever.

I agree! Yes brilliant thinking! Oh wait.. Before blindly agreeing, have a think about what you are agreeing too.. why are fixtures suddenly more important if playoffs aren't there.. A clash between a 4th and 5th placed team, with no chance of being top.. hey, last year this was a battle to see who gets into the playoffs, wasn't interested! But now there's no playoffs this is a must see clash! Batten down the hatches, the crowds will come pouring in! You hit the nail on your head with an earlier post Steve, the issues aren't to do with league formats so blaming the playoffs is just silly. The issues are to do with poor promotion, dragged out meetings, ever weakening league, riders consistently missing as racing for other teams on the same night, manipulation and at times downright breaking of rules by certain teams and general treating the public like mugs as we are seeing this close season.