BWitcher

Spot on WK, the list has to be taken with somewhat of a pinch of salt and is far from an accurate representation. BUT, it does immediately silence Sidneys claims of 'ask anyone' and Ermolenko wouldn't be top 50.. and as you point out it shows that Szczakiel is rated higher by a few more people than some might think. The thread may have moved away from Bruce somewhat but there's been some interesting stuff discussed. You can't beat reminiscing about great riders!

Problem is, you'd end up locking every thread that Starman popped up on

The only person being called a retard on the forum now is SCB. He hasn't got a problem with it.

Come on, be fair, give him time to get training.

There's been some decent debate on this thread with the likes of Terry, Colin Mills etc giving their opinions with good reasoning to back it up, why do you consistently have to ruin it with your nonsense? It's perfectly understandable that you had a recollection Shawn Moran was better... its been proved conclusively, without doubt that he wasn't, why not simply be happy you've learned something? As said, I've learned something tonight, that Autrey was better than I have ever previously given him credit for. Admitting you were wrong isn't a sign of weakness, it's simply being a sensible adult. To be honest I also didn't realise just how conclusively Ermolenko was above Moran and it's shown to me by looking at Moran's career closely, he wasn't quite as good as I thought.

If you insist, but that would make Shawn Moran not fit to clean any of them.. so Ermolenko is still better. Give me one fact, one achievement to demonstrate Shawn Moran was better than Ermolenko.. come on, it can't be that hard to do can it? Oh, and there were 28 as I said till you edited it.

28... still another 22 to go .. although of course Shawn Moran doesn't come close to being listed with those riders.

I don't disagree, there is plenty to back that up. I think Waiheke had John rated higher in his rankings but he wasn't as far ahead as you might expect.

No it isn't bullcrap. Yet again it is bona fide fact. If there are 8 teams in a division, there are 24 heat leaders. If there are 16 teams in a division there are 48 heat leaders.

I'm not saying Chris was better than John, however world team cups aren't really relevant as you are relying on team mates, nor are the higher league averages due to the different formats they rode in.

Maybe it was, but Shawn Moran was also riding in 1993.. but he couldn't even make the World Final in such a piss poor standard. Not really helping yourself with that claim!

Sidney, give it a rest man! There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko reaching 8 World Finals and Shawn Moran 3. That is FACT. There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko having a higher average than Moran 8 out of 9 seasons from 1986 onwards. That is FACT. There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being World Speedway Champion, when Moran never was. That is FACT. There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being on the rostrum 3 other times, when Moran managed that once (subsequently disqualified). That is FACT. There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko winning the BLRC 3 times to Morans 1. That is FACT. There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being voted by speedway fans 20th best of all time, whilst Moran was 52nd. That is FACT. Do feel free to post any facts you have to back up your claim Moran was better. The readers of the Speedway Star were asked to send in their top 10 riders I believe and the results were tallied. I'm not by any means saying that it is an accurate list as there are some weird names on there, but it dismisses Sidneys made up claim that nobody else would rank Ermolenko above Moran and Autrey.

Couldn't be more serious. You claimed folk wouldn't rate Ermolenko higher than Autrey or Moran. The FACT is in the biggest such survey ever undertaken, speedway fans did. Lesson is Sidney, don't ask for something that you might not like the answer too.

You're looking in the wrong place tbh. Back then, the British League was the strongest world league.. now it isn't, you have to compare it with the Polish or Swedish Leagues. Take the 20th best rider from the British League back in the day and compare with the 20th in either the Swedish or Polish League and you'll get a much more accurate idea. Now, numerous times Sidney has spouted that Ermolenko wouldn't appear in anybodies 'roll of honour' or would come close to being in the top 50 of all time. Wouldn't it be great if a survey could be done? Well, of course one was done by the Speedway Star where readers voted to come up with a Top 100 of all time. Of course, the list can be debated endlessly and there are many riders who I think are in the wrong place... but the point here is Sidneys claim that Ermolenko wouldn't appear if I 'asked around'. Actually he does. He's in 20th place. Autrey? 63rd. Shawn Moran? 52nd. Here's the listing in case anyone missed the issue. RIDER VOTES 1. Ivan Mauger 12,226 2. Hans Nielson 9,505 3. Ove Fundin 7,485 4. Barry Briggs 7,176 5. Ole Olsen 5,527 6. Erik Gundersen 4,008 7. Tony Rickardsson 3,856 8. Bruce Penhall 2,887 9. Peter Collins 2,203 10. Peter Craven 2,061 11. Ronnie Moore 1,999 12. Tomasz Gollob 1,012 13. Mark Loram 843 14. Anders Michanek 600 15. Tommy Knudsen 595 16. Jack Young 559 17. Per Jonsson 544 18. Jack Parker 499 19. Greg Hancock 452 20. Sam Ermolenko 433 21. Jason Crump 399 22. Jerzy Szczakiel 380 23. Vic Duggan 347 24. Billy Hamill 340 25. Jan O. Pedersen 270 26. Kenny Carter 265 27. Michael Lee 265 28. Ryan Sullivan 242 29. Phil Crump 230 30. Zenon Plech 217 31. Nigel Boocock 213 32. Leigh Adams 196 33. Egon Muller 176 34. Jimmy Nilsen 175 35. Joe Screen 166 36. Tommy Jansson 152 37. Bluey Wilkinson 145 38. Kelly Moran 139 39. Henrick Gustafsson 139 40. Edward Jansarz 138 41. Freddie Williams 135 42. Chris Louis 133 43. Igor Plechanov 113 44. Graham Warren 95 45. Lionel Van Praag 94 46. Billy Sanders 91 47. Les Collins 90 48. Oub Lawson 90 49. Vic Huxley 88 50. Todd Wiltshire 85 51. Chris Morton 82 52. Shawn Moran 79 53. Simon Wigg 75 54. John Louis 74 55. Soren Sjosten 73 56. Ron Johnson 73 57. Tom Farndon 71 58. Gary Havelock 71 59. Malcolm Simmons 65 60. Tommy Price 64 61. Martin Ashby 61 62. Ken McKinlay 59 63. Scott Autrey 59 64. Tommy Betts 56 65. Jim Airey 56 66. Bjorn Knutsson 51 67. Olle Nygren 47 68. John Cook 47 69. Larry Ross 45 70. Toni Kasper (junior) 45 71. Christer Lofqvist 43 72. George Hunter 42 73. Brian Karger 41 74. Piotr Protasiewicz 41 75. Eric Boocock 40 76. Peter Karlsson 40 77. Mitch Shirra 39 78. Ray Wilson 38 79. Antonin Woryna 38 80. Lars Gunnestad 37 81. Jack Milne 35 82. Bill Kitchen 34 83. Steve Lawson 34 84. Rafal Dobrucki 34 85. Eric Langton 32 86. Kelvin Tatum 31 87. Sverre Harrfeldt 30 88. Zoltan Adorjan 30 89. John Boulger 29 90. Dave Jessup 28 91. Gordon Kennett 28 92. Ken Le Breton 28 93. Bengt Jansson 28 94. Reidar Eide 27 95. Norman Parker 27 96. Bobby Beaton 26 97. Carl Stonehewer 26 98. John Davis 26 99. Charlie Monk 25 100. Ron Mountford 25 This survey was from the year 2000. Obviously some modern riders would now be ranked higher, particularly Rickardsson, Jason Crump, Nicki Pedersen and Greg Hancock. Others such as Tai Woffinden, Emil Sayfutdinov, Jarek Hampel, Chris Holder, Tomasz Gollob etc would also enter the list, but they wouldn't change the fact that Ermolenko is way above Autrey and Shaun Moran.. in fact, its likely the gap would increase. So Sidney, the public did indeed speak.

You're almost right WK.. Autrey v Ermolenko is almost entirely opinion..although facts can be introduced to give credence to the opinion. All I've stated is when two riders are from the same era and can directly be compared, opinion doesn't come into it unless they are pretty equally matched, but when one rider is above another in every available category, opinion is irrelevant.

Was there really a 'better calibre' of rider? This has already been discussed in depth and waihekeaces has demonstrated that is somewhat of a myth. More teams = More Heat Leaders = Perception there were better calibre of riders. One thing that is for certain is the top riders had easier races, thus were seen to beaten less.. again, perception, better riders.

I totally agree. However, it is now very easy to check who was better in particular eras.. I've provided all the evidence regarding Ermolenko and Moran, those with intelligence will understand it shows who is better... then there are those who are ignorant. I have learned something in this debate though and that is regarding Scott Autrey who I hadn't rated as highly. Having researched him I can see he had a spell of 3 years where he was riding at the very top of his game with one particular dominant year (79 of the top of my head?). Does this body of work put him above what Ermolenko achieved? I don't think so, but it certainly ranks him above Shawn Moran who before tonight, if asked I would have listed above Autrey,

Wow, and within 2 years he was in a run off for the World Title. What an amazing rider he must have been to improve so much, so fast! With only one season of racing in Europe too. As said, your opinions are utterly irrelevant when comparing two riders from the same era. The 'FACT' is Sidney, apart from your continued quoting of 1983 you have not and cannot come up with a single reason to back up your 'opinion' that Moran was better... simply because he wasn't. I'll leave you to continue trolling now.

As said, there is no opinion involved when you have two riders who you can compare head to head over a period of time. There isn't anything anyone can point towards to say Moran was better.. nothing at all... other than Sidney's.. "he had a better style".. you don't score pts for style, its not ski jumping.

Mauger and Ricko is totally down to opinion. They rode in different eras and had similar levels of success. Ermolenko and Moran is not opinion. They rode in the same era and Ermolenko was better in every conceivable category you can name.

Still waiting for your 'roll of honour' that Ermolenko will never appear on. Most folks 'roll of honour' in speedway is this one:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Individual_Speedway_World_Championship_medalists Funnily enough he appears.

Shawn Moran rode at the same time. So the 'era' has nothing to do with it.

As said, believe whatever fantasy you wish. History has already spoken. Year after year after year Sam was better.. even with all the injuries he had. Correct.. but he also won the BLRC on 2 other occasions of course, beating Nielsen in 91 when both riders had 12 pts going into their final ride.. and passing Hans Nielsen in 94 to win again.

Shawn Moran v Sam Ermolenko Number of World Titles: Sam Ermolenko 1 Shawn Moran 0 Number of World Final Medals: Sam Ermolenko 4 Shawn Moran 1 (although technically he was stripped of it, I'll be generous and give it him) Number of World Finals: Sam Ermolenko 8 Shawn Moran 3 Number of BLRC Wins: Sam Ermolenko 3 Shawn Moran 1 Number of 11+ Average seasons: Sam Ermolenko 1 Shawn Moran 0 Number of 10+ Average Seasons: Sam Ermolenko 4 Shawn Moran 1 From 1986 when both rode here regularly, head to head who had the highest average: Sam Ermolenko 8 Shawn Moran 1 It's not even close.

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