Vince

Could riders be sponsored by the BSPA or the club that owns them to avoid the situation of not knowing where they are riding in time. Could be the only positive of the asset system!

My biggest hope for this year is that the promoters get behind the spirit of the draft system, give it time to work and don't try to find loopholes. Then that the PL see it as something they should introduce for next year.

This is my last word on the subject because we now really have moved away from anything to do with the original subject which I will happily keep discussing as I see fit for as long as I want to do so. Yours wasn't an alternative comment, it was a criticism that the post I made was not relevant to the subject. I then replied (debated!)stating why I thought it was. I also pointed out that you had made what I viewed as a very out of place posting in the items for sale section. I was not trying to stifle genuine debate but avoid being told what I can post by somebody who is guilty of doing worse. The items for sale is exactly what it says not a place for debate at all. There is a years gone by section for exactly the sort of debate you want to haveabout equipment costings. If you want to continue 'debating' the point do so by PM and save everybody else from reading this tripe.

I think you perhaps missed the point that it is an 'items for sale' section not a place for discussion about prices from 50 years ago! I think you may also have missed the point, again, that this thread is about Peter Collins views on the current state of Speedway. That then moved on to attendencaes which are at the heart of the sports problems. Then onto why those problems exist, all relevant as far as I can tell. Everybody else seems to be happy with the way the thread has evolved, if you're not then stop reading it.

Peter Collins wrote in the Star about the current state of British Speedway, which is still what we are discussing. Read the items for sale topic about two bikes for sale and tell me my post here isn't more relevant than yours on there!

How many spectators buy tickets to watch the pub matches that run all over the country every week? That would be a fairer comparison to league Speedway. Football is the national sport and can attract spectators almost despite itself, loyalties and promotion of the sport begins in the cradle in millions of homes, no other sport can compare.

OK, here is my go at reasons for live attendances declining at Speedway since the glory days (the 40's in my opinion). 1. Many more alternatives these days. 2. Speedway was a town centre sport that large numbers of people, many of whom had no transport, could walk to comfortably. Nowadays tracks are more spread out and people have to make more time and effort to get there. Could this be a big part of the reason behind Poole's success? 3. Bigger tracks meant relatively higher speeds, seeing bikes do 70mph was a big deal. Nowadays many road bikes can comfortably exceed that speed in 1st gear. 4. The danger was emphasised, advertised and accepted as an important part of the sport. We seem to shy away from that now although if you look at riders injuries it is still incredibly dangerous if less often fatal. 5. Large numbers of people had or had ridden motorcycles that weren't hugely different to those used on Speedway (a very important part of the success of Moto GP and Superbikes in my opinion). 6. Many of the crowd knew, at least by sight, some of their home town riders. Because of their rarity foreign riders were a draw (Reider Eide was one of my favourites when I first went to Speedway in the 60's simply because I was very young and nobody seemed to know how to say his name!) 7. Winning was 2nd in importance to seeing a good meeting when I started going (if that's not rose tinted glasses on my part) The problem as I see it is that a lot of these things cannot and never will be fixable. The truth is that it's as daft us thinking we know how to attract newcomers as it is for the Promoters, we already know about Speedway. Somebody needs to ask people who have no interest in the sport why.

Have to say that I see Len fairly often and he is still a long way from forgetting his own name and still knows more about every aspect of Speedway than just about anybody you'll ever meet. I have no idea what goes on at Kent and it may be that Len is set in his ways but he ain't lost his marbles.

Remember seeing him several times during his CL and early PL days and being certain that he would be a top level EL rider by now. Don't know what went wrong but it's certainly not a lack of natural talent.

Having the worlds best riders at every meeting wouldn't attract a single newcomer to the sport for the simple reason that unless you already know Speedway you would have no idea who they are. I detest the tactical ride with a vengeance and the world cup joker even more but I don't believe that a single newcomer has been put off by it because they don't know about it. I agree that if riders don't touch the tapes and haven't rolled it should be a good start, I hope never again to see riders allowed to move at the start though. Whichever way you do it makes no difference to newcomers. It's OK harping back to the good old days but they just coincide with whenever you first used to go to Speedway. For some it's the 50's (when the sport was closer to disappearing than it is now) for some the 60's (me, but I can remember some distinctly lacklustre meetings and bad tracks) the 70's, 80's and 90's also get a mention now and again. Truthfully the sport had a small window where it was mainstream, just after the war when people were starved of entertainment and the sport was promoted as (and was) dangerous as well as being available on people's doorstep. It continued to attract national coverage in the press on the back of those few years but eventually that generation disappeared and the interest along with it. To my way of thinking Speedway (along with any other sports) will never again attain that level of coverage so has to be realistic in it's expectations. At the moment that means reducing costs to ensure survival in lean times while taking small steps (like the draft riders) toward future survival. Hopefully in the future it will mean using more up to date marketing methods and producing a product that will appeal to youngsters. Before anybody says that means that I am obviously happy with the way the sport is run now I should say there are many things I believe would help the sport a great deal that aren't done. However as most of those things would mean financial investment and it's neither my money nor do I know the financial standing or restrictions on the majority of clubs then assuming I know better than the people who have those facts would be foolish. As for PC, one of my heroes, fantastic rider and surely as entitled to an opinion as anybody else.

But only if the majority of the shareholders agree presumably

So if somebody wants to step in and run the Speedway what is actually going to happen with the revenue from the rest of the site? Surely the two are tied together.

You'd have to consider it but I always thought the Speedway was the whole point of the involvement and isn't it all owned by the shareholders? I don't really know the set up over there these days not having been over for about 3 years but I hate the thought of losing the place just the same.

I guess that makes it even more unlikely to continue then if the other stuff can't offset the cost of the Speedway.

I didn't know that, I am sure the bar and catering at least was once income for the Speedway. That could explain why the Speedway has been struggling so much the past couple of years.

I'm not sure if you are deliberately missing the point. Some do, by far the majority at any amateur event turn up in vans these days, that's because they are cheap enough to buy and run and comfortable enough these days that they can be used as everyday transport. Those that do use a car and trailer do so when they leave home at a sensible time on a Sunday morning and arrive back late afternoon or early evening. Unlike Speedway riders who are out and about at all hours, any day, any weather and sometimes have to use a services at 2am. Personally I wouldn't leave a bike on a trailer at 2am in most services. You seem to keep telling everybody that it's about riders wanting to be 'fashionable' when in fact it is by far the most sensible and cost effective option. Clearly you have not run a modern van for yourself so why not listen to those who have that experience?

I can answer that! Firstly amateur Speedway is different, clubs run meetings weekends and the riders pay to enter just the same as the other sports you mention. If you ride MotoX, Trials or Grasstrack you do so nearly always on a Sunday, you also pick and choose the meetings you want to do or can fit in around other commitments. Equally you ride when and where you can afford to, if you have major problems with your bike you sit out a few meetings until you can afford to fix it. If you ride Speedway at NL level you ride when and where you are told, it is hugely difficult to fit in a job around your Speedway commitments. You get fined if you turn up late or lose your team place if you can't get any more time off work. You lose your team place (and any hope of progressing in the sport) if you can't turn up with good bikes because you have had problems and the money has run out. Even running on a shoestring it cost me more for one lad to ride NL Speedway than it did for myself and two lads to ride local MX. The major expense was always the travelling and time off work but don't go back to the van conversation because you are wrong! It is right that costs need to be reduced but the set pay rate for NL isn't going to cover anybody's costs let alone see them making money. Do away with the payment and you will end the sport as the vast majority of riders couldn't survive. Cost reduction has to come from the reliability and maintenance of machinery and for the NL possibly enforcing the pay rates better (but even then the Island has the unique problem of it's location making it a longer trip, therefore more time off work, for the majority of riders).

In my opinion the priority should be exactly to produce more 'average' riders to populate the leagues. World class riders will get there whatever the system but there is a better chance of finding them if more kids get on a Speedway bike knowing they will get opportunities to progress.

In the same way you deviated away from the original subject into a non-stop attempt to analyse figures that were irrelevant as the minority clue is in the title?

Suggest what you like, Trafic 1.9TD - up to date van of the kind used by many riders, cheaper to run than modest 1600cc Megane without a trailer - fact. Poor poppet? get over your arrogant self. Isle of Wight are not going to be saved by any possible miniscule reduction in rider costs, possibly by a large cash injection and finding ways to increase crowds. Spent a great many Tuesdays and Thursdays there and the difference between the school holidays and the rest of the year is incredible. Don't really know what the answer is as it only takes a few rain offs during those important weeks and the season must be trashed. Be a great shame to lose yet another big track from the sport.

My young family were driven everywhere in a van, the kids wanted to race bikes as I did, the missus didn't drive so we used a van as everyday transport for years. The wife now has a car, I still want to race bikes so use a Transit for pretty much everything. When my youngest was riding Speedway I had a Trafic van that was actually cheaper to run than the wife's Megane, hence I can't help but be offended on their behalf when it is suggested that riders could save money by using a car rather than a 'fancy transporter'.

No more expensive to run a van than a big car these days and as most use them as everyday transport you wouldn't save a penny. I am sure most riders would be very happy to run one bike now but the teams and more importantly the fans wouldn't accept it. Fans expectations of professionalism are probably the biggest reason for the cost increases over the years. Once upon a time they would accept that Fred had to work for a living and may not have the finances or time to turn up with immaculate equipment. No such acceptance these days, just look at the posts on here if a rider has a spell of breakdowns or turns up with dirty kit. It's not even acceptable in the NL where everybody has to work (if not the riders then the parents do). It used to be notable for a rider to turn up for every meeting with really immaculate kit (somebody like Jimmy Squibb was well known for it) now it is the norm.

I'll bet that's what those who follow diving, squash, mountain biking etc said about Tai. Whether we like it or not Speedway is a minority sport these days and riders haven't been household names for several generations. Having a World Champion is great and has generated some good press coverage but it won't change much for the sport. So overall I would say better a big fish in the small pond than a little one in the small pond which are the realistic alternatives!

Think it's more simple than that. British lad is bought in who is an asset of another team, maybe they even loan him out for free. He does 2 or 3 meetings but doesn't make his average, there is no point in giving him time to find his feet as all you will be doing is training him for his home club. Foreign lad comes in and fails to make his average, however if you continue to let him learn there is a chance that he will make the grade eventually. By then he will be a club asset and therefore have a financial value to that club.

There is something wrong with it when it is combined with an asset system that makes giving a British lad an extended run to find his feet worthless while doing the same for a foreign lad is a far better gamble