Halifaxtiger

Incompetence is one thing, self interest is another. This is far more about the latter, and that's much less forgivable.

That might be your view. I merely suggested that if you do use words like that you are asking for a ban. Merely being critical is usually enough to get you thrown off.

To turn the argument around, you'd think that a reputation as an utter incompetent would become common knowledge and the person concerned would never get another post anywhere, wouldn't you ? This is what Peter Mole had to say in the Sheffield programme on Thursday : 'I must express my thanks to Laurence Rogers for stepping in on both occasions (as team manager at Sheffield's meetings at Peterborough and Lakeside) and doing an excellent job.....and his decisions and motivation of the boys was spot on'. Contrasts rather starkly with some of the comments we have, doesn't it ? Courage to air their thoughts' ? You mean stick the boot in on a public forum after someone else had raised the matter hiding behind a pseudonym. Very brave, that. On the other hand, I have chosen to stand up for someone I count as a friend because I believe that he is being harshly and vindictively treated. I have done so alone and in the face of every other comment on this thread. I'll let others decide which of us have shown the 'courage' here.

Par for the course on an official forum. As long as you are praising the club to the skies you are OK. Anything critical - however fair or reasonable - and you're history. Mind you, 'clown' and 'liar' are undoubtedly abusive and if your posts are couched in those terms you are asking for a ban.

I think we can get away with 6, Bob. After all, it happens a lot anyway. 5 I am not so certain about.

I have heard 5.

First of all, I should say that I count Laurence Rogers as a friend and have done for many years. Might be seen, then, that my remarks are biased. Then again, I doubt if they are much more prejudiced than many of the comments made on this thread. Interesting that a King's Lynn fan chooses to comment on an incident that took place 15 years ago. Bearing in mind that his promoter is now presiding over - and some might suggest help to create - the worst crisis in speedway that Phil Rising has ever known perhaps he would be better pointing fingers about bad practice and incompetence a little closer to home. The sort of disastrous errors he has made - including blowing hundreds of thousands of pounds on engines that no rider wants to buy - make Laurence's failings look positively trivial. A team manager might - and it is a case of might, because the Birmingham website says 'oversight' and 'assumption' - have told lies about a team make up and there are demands for him to be sacked and disciplined. Presumably this is on the basis that no member of speedway management has ever told lies before A mechanic once told me that there is a sure way to know when a speedway promoter is lying : his lips move. Bit drastic, but I suspect we all know where he is coming from so to single Laurence Rogers out here is the height of hypocrisy and almost certainly the result of people with an axe to grind. You should hear what my pals at Plymouth have to say about the commercial marketing of the Devils over the last few seasons, for example. It's not pleasant. One thing I can say for certain : of all the hundreds of speedway people I have met over the years - mostly fans, but riders, promoters, team managers and sponsors as well - no -one is more passionate about and dedicated to this sport of ours than Laurence Rogers. EDIT : One final point : Laurence was never paid any travelling expenses by Mildenhall Speedway.

The sadness of it is - with one or two minor exceptions - Belle Vue do it bang on. I can't recall seeing even an average meeting at NSS (never mind a bad one) and last night was no different.

For me, its a question of midweek racing (Wednesday is definitely better than Monday) and work the following day. The late start was a one off so I can allow that. But to then have an interval as well is just ridiculous. Speedway supporters constantly complain about unnecessary delay and are, basically, completely ignored.

Not totally correct. I won't go Mondays but went last night. Usually high quality NSS stuff, the final score perhaps not reflecting the course of the meeting. Fricke never really looked like getting beaten, Bewley pulled off his usual racing moves (he was the inside of bend 4 worked out totally) but the MOM for me was Tungate. Little concerned about Cook, he simply didn't seem to have the speed. Few moments from Masters and Schlein and a shout for Greaves, some big effort there. Only one complaint : why have an interval when the overwhelming majority of speedway fans complain about unnecessary delay and especially when the start was delayed and there were a number of long track grading breaks ?

Precisely It was steaming hot at Scunny on Sunday - I can't recall being at a meeting when it was hotter - and yet the meeting was just brilliant. Rob Godfrey doesn't have a magic wand - if he can do it, so can everyone else.

Superb speedway meeting, EWR back to its very best

The flaw in your view is that even if the product is right people still don't come and, worse, they continue to leave. The obvious example is Belle Vue. Fantastic track and racing. Brand new stadium (no standing on broken concrete or a mud bank in the rain). In Neil, Hayley & Chase the best presentation team in the business. Their gates have decreased by most accounts by one third this season. Somerset has a deserved reputation for excellent racing. Debbie Hancock, however, has said that their gates are 'not good'. Word I get is that they lose a substantial 5 figure sum every year and when they cleaned up a couple of seasons ago it was nearer 6. Until the NSS came along, I'd say Normanby Road Scunthorpe was the best in the country - I have had the pleasure of seeing some truly brilliant stuff there over time. Yet Rob Godfrey has continually complained about his poor attendances, and indeed threatened to close the track unless they increased a couple of years ago. I have, for a few seasons now, thoroughly enjoyed my trips to Workington. Decent stadium, good track, top quality presentation. Yet I know that when I have been that the attendance has been about half of the break even figure and Laura Morgan has lost a couple of thousand pounds every time. My own view is that good racing does increase gates or at least those clubs that provide it would be in dire straights without the additional fans it pulls in (I know this for certain, I am of one of them). But its not, and never will be, the sole answer and a single panacea to all of speedway's problems. We simply have to take a far broader approach than just concentrating on that, and ignoring those who come for the team element is one of the reasons why the sport is in the state it is now. Constantly taken for granted for years, they have finally had enough. You might hook someone with good racing. But if the stadium is a dump, the toilets are filthy, the promotion surly, the presentation puerile and the food inedible they won't stay on it for long.

Its true that tracks have had deliveries of poor quality shale but as far as I am aware that has been resolved now. Word I have from Plymouth is that the dust is terrible. My pals down there are some of the most reliable that the club has but it has got to the point where they are now picking and choosing meetings, leaving early or not going at all.

I'd say that's inaccurate as saying that the racing is irrelevant, its all about the team. There are those - and I am definitely one of them - who go to speedway just for the sheer excitement of it all and hence go to tracks where racing is best I have absolutely no doubt, though, that the overwhelming majority of speedway supporters are not like that and go to watch their team. Some will even put up with rubbish on the track every week. That is evidenced by the debate, argument and bias on this forum. As a good example, I went to Belle Vue on Monday for the quality of the speedway. My friend - a long time season ticket holder - was there to support the Aces. In my - considerable - experience the racing today is no better or worse in general than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. While I am of the opinion that a better standard of racing would pull more people in, falling crowds are not down to an equally falling standard out on the track. Belle Vue is easily the best racing track in the country, yet their gates have apparently fallen by about 30% this season. The racing is as good as ever; the decline has been down to the change in race night, nothing more.

Precisely The thing is that speedway has never been - apart from for the top boys - a full time occupation even during the season. History contains many examples of that - Gary Peterson, despite being a top rider in the NL, complaining that he could not make it pay in the late 1960's, Mick Bell, a championship winner on 3 occasions in the 1970's British League saying that it was 'just a good paying hobby', Dave Morton, a heat leader in the 1985 Ellesmere Port team, admitting that he had to go into the motor trade and, perhaps the most telling of all, Tony Davey - an 8.5 rider in the British League in the 1970's - saying that he would have to sell his car to buy a new engine. Doubling up solves that problem, but it creates a disastrous situation for the sport in that you either have teams full of guests or clubs are forced to ride on nights when they cannot attract crowds. Riders are simply going to have to realise that this cannot continue, or they will only be turning for one team because so many have closed. Dean said the other day - and he is absolutely right - that the tail is wagging the dog. Riders simply have to wake up and smell the coffee, realise that speedway isn't a full time occupation and adapt accordingly.

I'd say Stoke is one of the best shaped tracks in British Speedway anyway. It makes the dreadful reputation they have all the more damning. While few could make themselves wider by cutting into the outside (ironically, Rye House is one) some could by cutting on the inside.

I don't think you can say that the team 'comes above everything else'. In speedway, in particular, the quality of the entertainment is important. Speaking to a Belle Vue fan on Monday (a season ticket holder of long standing), he said if the Aces started losing a lot at home he'd consider stopping going. I think that is true of a lot of speedway fans - they can be most fickle. It can't be a question of the team being everything if you are willing to drop them after a few home defeats and a potential bottom of the league placing. In addition, if the team is winning and the speedway is excellent that is more likely to attract more people than winning alone. Even if the team is losing good quality racing will always entice spectators. I am pretty sure that Scunthorpe, for example, pull in more for the racing than for the team. It is a matter of the team, you're right. But that's not the be all and end all. Get the team and the racing right and you're more likely to be on to a winner.

Don't park down by the public park at the bottom of the road going past the stadium. Had my car broken into there a couple of years ago, and the thieves weren't subtle.

I don't think that point can be overstated. Basically, it has been left to the clubs to explain to their fans when the decision has been made from the centre. Gross irresponsibility comes to mind.

More about width and preparation (although I fully support and entirely agree with your drum banging ) than size, I'd say. No-one would say that Berwick is a better racing track than Mildenhall, for example, and I have seen some cracking racing at the smallest of them all, Plymouth. I think the best example about preparation is STMP, Redcar. When it opened, it gained a deserved reputation as a very fine circuit. Then Havelock got hold of it and basically destroyed the track's racing capability. Now that he has left, its regaining its earlier reputation. That shows that we can never underestimate how much the ability and attitude of a promoter can affect the quality of the speedway at a track.

I have met BCD and I can assure you he's not like that. He does, however, have a real blind spot about Lakeside. Then again, he's not alone as my pal from Sheffield proves. The problem is that the track gained a disastrous reputation in the Russell years and, for some, that still stands. The truth is actually very different and I have known several people change their minds when they go there after a few seasons absence. As far as I can make out, that's just about the size of it. Lakeside, Peterborough and Workington all put Friday fixtures on their calendars with exceptions where necessary and this was agreed by the BSPA. When one promoter couldn't get guests for his injured number 1, that had to change. Sounds absolutely crazy but it could actually be the truth, although I am not certain its survival of the fittest.

You can just imagine what would happen if Buster Chapman and Rob Godfrey said 'the fans are the last people that we will listen to'...............

That's a first

I think you are right to a degree - and you are definitely right in your paragraph above regarding the bewildering and contradictory suggestions made - but what you said was 'fans are the last people that should be listened to' . In my book, that is definitely wrong. You have to listen to them, as bizarre and ridiculous as their comments might be. The alternative is failing to address concerns that can be addressed and, in doing so, ensuring that they remain happy. To give an example, Isle of Wight have a food outlet, the Retreat. One fan complained ordering and receiving was a bit of a shambles but the next week signage had gone up to make sure that people knew where to order and where not to. Small, I agree. But still a case of listening to fans. Part of speedway's downfall is that it has taken its fans for granted, ignored them and, on occasion, treated them with contempt and even abuse.