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Champions League Semi.. you've lost 1st leg 2-0... you're winning 1-0 at home in the 2nd leg.. Corner in the last minute.. you leave six players back. "We couldn't afford to concede a goal" says the manager. Starman, Phil Rising, Stevebrum and a few others praise the genius tactics as said team is knocked out.

Well I've heard it ALL now. The Final is the one race where you CANNOT BUGGER ABOUT TRYING TO TEAM RIDE. Has Roscoe joined the forum in disguise ?

The way it was, with GB best under 21 rider at reserve, it gave GB the greatest flexability, Tai was likely to be riding well (but there again who would have thought Majic, Dudek, Emil would not have been at their best), Cook may have found his form, but in case either of them faltered (and Cook did) then GB had a on form reserve. The alternative suggested has been Tai and Lambert in the team with (under 21) Bewley at reserve. Had Tai or lambert had a poor day, or fell and injured (like Hukenberg) then would Dan be able to rise to the occasion? Lets face it, he is brilliant considering he not been riding too long, but at a senior world championship level - he would be very vulnerable. So, its my opinion, the team selection was correct, and the way the reserve was used was also correct.

The most poignant part of the whole competition i thought was Emil`s interview on the winners podium( doesn`t he speak very good English) thanking the team`s Polish sponsors, and him meaning without them Russia wouldn`t have been able to take part. I have been banging on about this for some time that the prize money for the event is pathetic - Russia as winners won about £15000( converted from US dollars) and they had to pay for hotels for about 12 persons(min) for lets say 3 nights plus travel and associated costs for 3 meetings. No wonder we are down to an event with 2 senior riders per team and an U21 rider at reserve who i suggest will not get anything like a third of what`s left to pay the riders. obviously with the prize money decreasing down the order most teams will i suggest be out of pocket come the end of the week !!!!!!! i listed prize money on page 14 of this thread.

...wish that I hadn't got rid of all my programmes. Constant source of reference and jogging the memory cells.

It seems you as Managing Editor of the Speedway Star has an agenda. Virtually everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet accept you. I won't insult your intelligence Phil but if you can't see and can't admit as good as Tai Woffinden was in that tournament that he made a mistake in the Final then words escape me. Can see from your posts that you want Rosco removed but continuing with this "Woffinden couldn't help Lambert in the final" narrative isn't doing your reputation as a speedway journalist much cop

Don't be silly, you didn't do that. Numerous experts on this forum say leaving top riders out doesn't effect crowds! Seriously though, it's a shame British speedway (league) has sunk to the levels it has. We should be enjoying a Lindgren/Woffinden era at Wolves now that would have been right up with Ermolenko/Correy/Karlsson/Max/Lindgren (perm the relevant two).

The funny thing is ... many of us here, with nothing better to do in our spare time spent several days last week discussing the various scenarios and tactics with a Final race giving preference to second and third. And specifically how this may require totally different thinking than the qualifying races beforehand. Didn't that happen within the GB camp ? Or even inside Rossiter's head ? Weren't they all 'brainstorming' the outcomes and possibilities - not just for fun, like us - but for real because it mattered ?

I'm having a snack at the moment and literally spat some out as I burst into laughter. You're comedy gold Starman, sheer genius.

You're still not grasping it are you. There isn't a counter argument to what you have said because you haven't got an argument in the first place! Going for the win was irrelevant. It made no difference to the end result whether Lambert did or didn't pass Emil. Let's just suppose Lambert had sneaked past Emil on lap 2.. Tai has cleared off chasing the win.. Then on the last bend Emil goes round the outside and takes back third. Had Tai not been in the lead he could have blocked that outside run. The scenario for the final was simple. Come last, you lose. The win was not important.

Kept all my programmes of meetings attended - would never dream of ditching them even though I no longer attend. Just digging them out every now and again, you end up flicking through many, ending up taking longer than expected to try to find out what you got them out in the first place for.

Im a big collector of newer programmes, and I'd personally be gutted if they became un-existent at some clubs.. Scunny's programme is the type everyone would probably buy as its only £1, word from Rob, racecard, fixtures and about 4 ads (inside covers)

Agree, in my youth I was an avid collector of programmes of speedway, football and ice hockey going back to the 1920's. Still get them out occasionally to look at them. I love them from a historical point of view. The last time I went to a premier league football match it was more like a glossy magazine full of stuff that didn't interest me, for which they wanted £6. I didn't bother. Gone are the days when programmes were a cheap and simple addition to the match day experience.

Quite frankly it doesn't matter how many opinions you canvass. If they suggest anything other than helping your partner in the final, they are wrong or simply short of a few brain cells. Let me put it this way.. Why bother with team riding in the heats then? Any argument that has been put forward for Tai not helping in the final is wiped out by him doing it in the heats. Yet in the one race where it was ABSOLUTELY essential (the heats weren't)... it wasn't done? You seem to be taking a stance that suggesting the tactics were wrong is somehow painting Tai to be a villain and wiping out the amazing efforts he put in during the week. That is utterly false. Yes, there are some anti Tai posters doing that, but they'll find fault regardless. As said, I class myself as a massive Tai fan and defended his decisions over the British Final and not riding for GB. I can however see GB got it wrong in the Final. If it was the managers decision, he should go. If you ran the final 100 times with Tai chasing the lead, barring mechanical failure Lambert wasn't going to pass Emil in any of them. If you ran the final 100 times with Tai attempting to help Lambert, I'd say at least ten of the times Lambert would get up for 3rd. Others may end up with Emil getting 2nd but it would be irrelevant. The fact is quite simply, the tactics used gave 0% chance of success barring engine failure.

I'd class myself as one of Tai's dedicated fans and I certainly asked the question. You'd have to be a few brain cells short to not do so. Seen various excuses trotted out as to why they didn't try and not one of them has any semblance of reason. It was the wrong tactic. Simply no argument. However, I won't use it a stick to beat him with nor will I let it detract from the superb performance he put in over the week or the great strides GB have already taken.

FIRSTLY, as I have said many, many times, I do not contribute here as Managing Editor of Speedway Star but as a speedway fan. Have no agenda. Don't think I have mentioned Rosco. And my opinion (which is all jt is) remains the same regarding the final. In fact, has been endorsed this morning by some who were there, including a rider whose option I value highly. I have no problem with you seeing it differently. You should simply do the same.

Mind you, these were not just 'perceived' attempts to stop them winning dreamt up by particularly over sensitive Poles. This had been most informed people's (correct) opinion worldwide since the idea of a SWC replacement was first mooted. You are not being paranoid if folk really ARE out to get you. But whether this was REALLY the reason why thousands upon thousands of individual Poles did not attend ... I somewhat doubt that will be the case. It still remains the truth that ahead of the events the public was not won over by what seemed a very dubious competition . This was true in England, Germany AND Poland. In fact there was not a place on earth that could have got a good crowd for it especially at the prices being charged. The real blame still lies with BSI and the FIM Now the final was seen to be so brilliant things may be very different next time. The superb action provided by the riders ... that has saved so many people from having to do a lot more explaining of their failures in strategy and organisation. Armando and Torben should go down on bended knee to ALL the riders for that.

I really do hope Buxton continue. Played a huge part in the progress of many riders. Cookie the wright brothers and many many more. I think teams like Eastbourne Birmingham Cradley have driven up pay rates to get the best riders and this is crucifying teams like iow Buxton and kings Lynn young stars are no more due to riders wanting more than the sport can pay.

I take it you never saw Jason Crump, Ryan Sullivan Sam Tesar amongst the many others that have graced the showground who were all far superior to MJJ . Who I may add IMO was rather irregular as I recall.

Speedway is a 4 lap race, did you know that? So Lambert didn't get ahead, so you switch to Plan B. Simply chasing the win should NEVER have been an option as it was a losing option.

HOW many mores... Had Tai dropped back then we would have also seen a different race.

So why did we even go out on track? Tai and Robert could just have said "Well done, lads", shook hands, and saved methanol and tyres... Come to think of it, why did we even compete? We could have just stayed home as you don't think we should have even tried to win... Steve

Of course he isn't in Emil's class. We all know that. Hence he needed help. So you've told us once Emil got ahead of Lambert, Lambert wasn't going to repass him on his own. So at that point, Britain have lost. We have two choices at this stage.. chase Laguta and lose. Or try and slow Emil to give Lambert and chance and although still likely lose, we have a chance of winning. Yet you continually advocate taking the guaranteed losing option. Staggering!

AGREE. GB didn't lose it, Russia won it.

Heat 9 http://www.speedwaygb.co/news.php?extend.34714

Russia won.They done what was needed and we didn't.Simple as that Before the meeting I said on here I didn't think we would win this year,but our future looks bright.Well I was wrong a pleasantly surprised to put it mildly.But when you get that close to actually winning the thing,i was and still am amazed that we didn't try our best in the final,but rather tamely handed it to the Russians

After that first lap, yes it was pretty clear that Robert, whilst may have passed Emil (tall order), the only real option was for Tao to help him out by trying to slow Emil, i.e. team riding just like Tai had done for the previous 18 races. But reasons only known to Tai (or the manager), Tai chose not to employ the team riding tactic in that final race.

This seems to be the pattern now.. remind us of how great the team riding was in races where it didn't actually matter to a great degree... but then tell us it wasn't important when it was of absolute importance!

IMO the same thing is happening in Speedway with SGB Championship programmes now mainly costing between £2.50 - £3.00. With the Speedway Star running a rating feature on each track's programme, it appears that some Promotions have entered into a vanity contest to be top dog, with the result that larger, in terms of size and number of pages, are being produced, which in turn has resulted in the prices rocketing. If they reverted to producing a more compact & smaller sized version at about £1 - £1.50, I wonder if those who now print off a basic scoresheet to fill in, might be tempted to purchase a low cost Official programme instead?

After Friday nights performance perhaps the problem has been solved

Oh god,just when things were getting sensible along comes another one!! The competition was specifically thought out for 'team riding in those circumstances' otherwise the rule for the final would be different

I am so glad that someone with impeccable 'Tai credentials' is able to put the argument so well. Without incurring any 'Tai bashing' claims.

He was the one who broke the news...

WAS talking specifically about Poland. The Polish speedway authorities want things they own way and are prone to throw their toys out of the pram. They have the best group of riders, the best stadiums, the biggest crowds, biggest sponsors, pay the big bucks, etc, etc. They believe that puts them in a position where everyone else falls into line. If they don't get their own way they can prove difficult and they were opposed to the SON from the word go. Perhaps with good reason from their perspective but they are becoming the Donald Trump of speedway. Poland first, second and third.

Often do, especially those who ride for King's Lynn.

Anyway it was a good competition and I’m just happy that there was happiness in every team and everyone was getting along nicely

Apparently not though... I've had an opportunity to look at the final race again and can see that Woffy didn't look back for his partner once until the 4th bend of the 4th lap. We'll probably never know the reason why he did this as anybody that legitimately asks the question is tagged as a "keyboard warrior". Someone did ask Tai the question on Twitter, admittedly not in the best way and got shot down by everybody that worships the water Tai walks on

Well I got that one wrong didn't I . Even Woffindens most dedicated fans will admit he made a mistake in the final. Over 2 days he has always looked after, cajoled and helped Robert Lambert out. Unfortunately in the final heat Lambert was on Emil's back wheel coming into the last lap and needed Tai to try and clamp or run Emil wide to give an opportunity for Robert to go round the outside of cut back up the inside. Robert was not adrift he just needed some help from his teammate to pass a world class rider. Surely Tai was aware that first place was irrelevant , it was only last place that really mattered.

There's no need for that kind of remark, if you made a better job of your posts people might give you more respect and accept your points....... Then again maybe you don't want that?

It's not Its.

That about sums it up Daniel....its all about opinions, and not just re PC, PC, TW, its about mostly everything discussed on this forum, indeed any forum. Its a pity people cannot respect others opinion - discuss it yes, but soon after (or sometimes sooner then soon after) the abuse starts. Shame really, maybe turns a lot of potential posters off. Just my opinion

Doesn't the best rider just come down to opinion. Belle Vue fans will say Collins, King's Lynn fans are likely to say Lee, Wolves fans say Woffinden etc etc. For me I can't compare riders from many year gone by as I've never seen or remember them riding. Certainly since I've started watching Speedway (1989) Tai Woffinden by far is the greatest ever British rider of all time. That's my opinion, it can't be right or wrong, it's just an opinion

This was suppose to be a Pairs tournament where team riding was to be rewarded. The 4320, scoring would have encouraged teams to ride as pairs, knowing 2nd and 3rd would be more beneficial, than just the winning of the races.. As it was with the 3210, all teams knew when you won the race you were rewarded the same as those who team rode behind you, so in affect it contradicted the purpose of the tournament. ( it was said you got a bonus point, but that only came in play if the scores were level at the end). It is not possible to recalculate the actual scores using the 4320 format, because it would have put a whole new emphasis on the riding behaviour of the riders, knowing the advantages gained through team riding was greater than just winning. As with so many things I just feel it wasn't thought through properly... NB. I have been fortunate to witness most of the great riders mentioned on here when compering them to Woffy. My personal favourite was Michael Lee, I loved Ove Fundin, adored Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs and Rickardsson were out of this world, but what Woffy done this last week was equal to any of those great riders.... Pure Class....

Let's look at it a little closer - and this is in no way any attempt to discredit Peter Collins... It was mentioned that the England team of Collins' day was much stronger, but that is only a very small part of it. Yes, to win three successive team golds was a great achievement, and to score three maximums even greater - particularly in three different countries. However, look at the opposition... In those three finals, GB/England would have probably won the golds WITHOUT PC in the team - certainly in '74 and '75. How many riders of a comparable standard did PC have to face in those meetings? ONE - Michanek. Maybe you could add Sjosten in '74... So, as great a rider as PC was, and as many medals as he won, I really don't think that these events carry any weight as far as using them to substantiate his claims as the GOAT against riders like Craven and Woffinden. Also, as far as the one-offs against GP's as far as difficulty is irrelevant, as although one bad ride could cost you, the exact same situation applied to everybody else in each respective championship. Every year, the World Final was allegedly "devalued" because of riders who didn't make it to the final. And stating that you can get away with bad meetings in the GP's doesn't necessarily hold any water, because everybody is riding under the same rules. If, at the end of the season, the GP's are decided by, say, 20 points or less, that is ONE meeting. In 2000, Rickardsson had ONE bad meeting, and he finished third, seven points behind Loram. In 1996, Nielsen had a bad meeting, and lost the title by two points. Yes, one bad meeting can certainly cost you. Still, it is the same for everyone, so there is no advantage or disadvantage for anyone. What it comes down to is the fact that you can't say that one-off World Finals were easier or more difficult than the GP's, as they are very different systems. Particularly in the 1980' s, all you had to do was finish in the Top 8, Top 10, or even Top 11 of World Championship meetings to qualify for the next round! Four or five average performances, and one good night, and hey, you could be World Champ! Steve

2018 BRITISH CHAMPIONSHIP RACE CARD :- https://www.keepandshare.com/doc16/21041/british-champs-2018-pdf-38k?da=y

You are in danger of falling into the same trap as SteveBrum. Records don't tell you anything like the whole story. Just to give a few examples, Peter Collins has far more World Championship medals than either Craven or Woffinden but you have to take into account that England were the best in the world during much of his era. As a result he was advantaged by being a member of World Cup and Pairs winning teams. There was no World Cup or Pairs to win during Craven's career and Woffinden hasn't had the quality of team mates that Collins had. The British Championship was first held in 1961 so Peter Craven didn't have an opportunity to win it during most of his career. He did win it in 1962 and 63, the year he died and remember that at that time Australian and New Zealand riders, like Briggs and Moore, also took part so it was more difficult to win than in recent times. I also previously touched on the better quality of riders during the Craven and Collins eras as compared to now, which made it more difficult to win a title.

our mate won't put this on so I will Coventry 40 Cradley 49

RELATIVELY easy? Sitting in front of your telly maybe.

I have always been a great admirer of Tai's on-track exploits and there is no doubt there is a strong case to say he is Britain's best-ever. Certainly in the top 4. And the way he rode during the SON certainly emphasises that and furthers his cause in that respect no end. So, like a lot of posters on here who have commented on the final race, I have no dislike of Tai nor any need to "attack" him. And I find it speaks volumes for the paucity of the argument of others when they have to resort to that line of reasoning when trying to answer the criticism that he should have done more to help Lambert in the final. It would be much better to give some sort of reasoned argument why they feel his tactics in the last race were correct rather than attacking everyone as "Tai haters". To his credit, Philip has tried to do just that without ad hominem attacks, but, in my opinion, has failed miserably to make out any case at all why Tai should have just gone for the win and forget his partner. Yes, we know the chances of his shepherding Rob through past the world class Sayfutdinov were close to zero, but there was no alternative, given the rules. What difference did it make to the overall position that Tai storms off to win? There was only one chance of victory last night and that was for Rob not to come last. Other than last himself, it was irrelevant where Tai finished up. He could have stormed off and won in a new track record for all the difference it made. The only tactic he had was to hang back and try and help, however difficult that was. Can someone please give a good reason why they think Tai was right to do what he did without dismissing people who disagree as "Tai haters"?

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